Steel frames: lugged vs. TIG welded
#26
Senior Member
Over the years I’ve heard now and then various reasons offered as to why lugged frames might be stronger or more durable than welded ones. Coincidentally, usually from people who happened to prefer the aesthetics of lugs over welding . In practice, it’s a wash and a competently built frame will last for many years whether lugged or not.
The one putative advantage of lugged construction over welding that might have a grain of truth is that the higher temperature required to make a weld makes it more likely for an inexperienced or unskilled builder to overheat the steel and render it brittle. And that would lead to cracks forming at the welds. But it’s also possible to do a poor job of brazing a lugged joint in various ways, so really you just want someone who knows what they’re doing to build your frame and we’re back to it just not really mattering. The good news is 15k miles ought to be enough to cause cracks from brittle steel to start appearing, so you should be OK.
The one putative advantage of lugged construction over welding that might have a grain of truth is that the higher temperature required to make a weld makes it more likely for an inexperienced or unskilled builder to overheat the steel and render it brittle. And that would lead to cracks forming at the welds. But it’s also possible to do a poor job of brazing a lugged joint in various ways, so really you just want someone who knows what they’re doing to build your frame and we’re back to it just not really mattering. The good news is 15k miles ought to be enough to cause cracks from brittle steel to start appearing, so you should be OK.
#27
Clark W. Griswold
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I doubt it would really make a huge difference but it would be interesting to have a builder who is extremely proficient in lugged, brazed and TIG build three as identical frames as possible and then do some testing on all three. Or maybe a couple builders who are as close in style as possible or at least building the same geometry with as similar tubes as is possible.
In the end I think for me a really nice lugged frame with some unique lugs would be the top of the list but brazed and TIG would follow. My ultimate dream is a lugged titanium bike which I recognize is basically not practical or realistic as brazing titanium is really hard and and super sterile process and I don't want fake welded lugs or a different material.
In the end I think for me a really nice lugged frame with some unique lugs would be the top of the list but brazed and TIG would follow. My ultimate dream is a lugged titanium bike which I recognize is basically not practical or realistic as brazing titanium is really hard and and super sterile process and I don't want fake welded lugs or a different material.
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Like all of these discussions it devolves into the romantics transposing fond memories of days of yore. Tig is superior in numerous way’s. The frame can be lighter because no lugs. The frame can be lighter because the butts can be much shorter. It is easy to see the quality of the joint unlike brazing where it’s just a guess. It takes greater prep to ensure the mitres are perfect. Lastly it takes greater skill as all errors are exposed, you can’t cover up once a error occurs.
Lugged construction is much easier and requires less equipment which makes it popular with the small builders and hobbyists.
Lugged construction is much easier and requires less equipment which makes it popular with the small builders and hobbyists.
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#29
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Like all of these discussions it devolves into the romantics transposing fond memories of days of yore. Tig is superior in numerous way’s. The frame can be lighter because no lugs. The frame can be lighter because the butts can be much shorter. It is easy to see the quality of the joint unlike brazing where it’s just a guess. It takes greater prep to ensure the mitres are perfect. Lastly it takes greater skill as all errors are exposed, you can’t cover up once a error occurs.
Lugged construction is much easier and requires less equipment which makes it popular with the small builders and hobbyists.
Lugged construction is much easier and requires less equipment which makes it popular with the small builders and hobbyists.
When I bought a custom steel frame, I went with Waterford Precision Cycles. They offered lugged frames (under the Waterford name) and tig welded frames (under the Gunnar name). Aside from the joining method, the frames only differed in the fanciness of the paint and decals and in the prices -- the lugged Waterford frame would've been about $700 more expensive. Otherwise, same tubesets, same builders, same painters and paints, etc. Since I was planning to ride the bike rather than gaze lovingly on it, I chose the tig welded Gunnar. After four years and about 17k miles, I have no regrets. And as for the OP's concerns: that frame has been absolutely thrashed (it's a gravel rig), as has my 20+ year old LeMond that has been ridden well over 40k miles.
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#30
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Well, but Larry did ask about "egg considerations" so maybe he's talking about poached rather than braised?
It's also worth noting that another supposed advantage [sic] of lugged construction that seems to get a lot of traction on the internet is in fact a myth:
Folks will often talk about how easy it is to repair a damaged lugged frame, because you can just heat up the lugs, remove the damaged tube, and ...
...and what exactly? You can't replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built lugged frame without disturbing the alignment*
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
*ironically, you can replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built TIG-welded frame without disturbing the alignment...so long as it's only one of those tubes. More than one though and you're SOL.
Folks will often talk about how easy it is to repair a damaged lugged frame, because you can just heat up the lugs, remove the damaged tube, and ...
...and what exactly? You can't replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built lugged frame without disturbing the alignment*
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
*ironically, you can replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built TIG-welded frame without disturbing the alignment...so long as it's only one of those tubes. More than one though and you're SOL.
#31
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It's also worth noting that another supposed advantage [sic] of lugged construction that seems to get a lot of traction on the internet is in fact a myth:
Folks will often talk about how easy it is to repair a damaged lugged frame, because you can just heat up the lugs, remove the damaged tube, and ...
...and what exactly? You can't replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built lugged frame without disturbing the alignment*
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
*ironically, you can replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built TIG-welded frame without disturbing the alignment...so long as it's only one of those tubes. More than one though and you're SOL.
Folks will often talk about how easy it is to repair a damaged lugged frame, because you can just heat up the lugs, remove the damaged tube, and ...
...and what exactly? You can't replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built lugged frame without disturbing the alignment*
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
*ironically, you can replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built TIG-welded frame without disturbing the alignment...so long as it's only one of those tubes. More than one though and you're SOL.
And yes, realignment needs to be considered. It needs to be considered for any frame that is blasted with a bunch of heat at a joint, so it is hardly unique to lugged frames. I would expect any frame that has any tube, lug, or dropout replaced to be checked for alignment.
...Bock isnt a hack- he is a long time well respected builder, fabricator, and refinisher.
#32
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My friend was riding no hands on his Landshark (that I sold him) and he crashed into a large concrete potted plant, bending the top and down tubes. He sent the frame back to John Slawta at Landshark and John replaced those tubes and repainted it.
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#34
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Brian Baylis was far from a hack. He replaced top and down tubes and repainted my wife’s Tesch Model 100.
#35
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If you look at chromoly (4130) tube construction in aircraft and older racing car frames, it was TIG welded. TIG welding will give the strongest connection between tubes because the parent metal is melted and combined with filler metal (of a similar material) and joined together at the molecular level. TIG welding can be more costly because the equipment and electric power required is expensive. Weldors certified in electric arc processes have their test joints X-Ray tested to confirm complete fusion all the way through. The weak area of these joints is the area of each tube right next to the actual weld (called the heat affected zone) and the design of the item (frame) needs to take that into account. TIG welding introduces a higher temperature to the metal in the heat affected zone. I believe this is one of the reasons TIG welded frames use larger diameter tubes.
Brazing requires cheaper equipment and no electric power and the joint is a mechanical bond similar to copper waterpipe soldering.
In general, brazing (OAW-oxy aceteline welding) is easier to learn than TIG (tungstun inert gas) welding
In the industrial world, most everything is usually electric arc welded and TIG welded when working with thin wall tubes
Brazing requires cheaper equipment and no electric power and the joint is a mechanical bond similar to copper waterpipe soldering.
In general, brazing (OAW-oxy aceteline welding) is easier to learn than TIG (tungstun inert gas) welding
In the industrial world, most everything is usually electric arc welded and TIG welded when working with thin wall tubes
Last edited by socalife; 06-23-23 at 06:15 PM. Reason: word change
#36
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Well, but Larry did ask about "egg considerations" so maybe he's talking about poached rather than braised?
It's also worth noting that another supposed advantage [sic] of lugged construction that seems to get a lot of traction on the internet is in fact a myth:
Folks will often talk about how easy it is to repair a damaged lugged frame, because you can just heat up the lugs, remove the damaged tube, and ...
...and what exactly? You can't replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built lugged frame without disturbing the alignment*
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
*ironically, you can replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built TIG-welded frame without disturbing the alignment...so long as it's only one of those tubes. More than one though and you're SOL.
It's also worth noting that another supposed advantage [sic] of lugged construction that seems to get a lot of traction on the internet is in fact a myth:
Folks will often talk about how easy it is to repair a damaged lugged frame, because you can just heat up the lugs, remove the damaged tube, and ...
...and what exactly? You can't replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built lugged frame without disturbing the alignment*
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
*ironically, you can replace a top tube or down tube or seat tube on an already-built TIG-welded frame without disturbing the alignment...so long as it's only one of those tubes. More than one though and you're SOL.
Are you calling Waterford "hacks"?
#37
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#38
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I always wonder about those lifetime frame guarantees. I still have the receipt for my StumpJumper, so would Specialized honor it some day if the frame failed? (I can't even imagine what that would mean ...) I bought it in 1993, and they don't even make steel frames anymore. Huh.
I bought a Raleigh Competition in Reynolds 531 tubing when I was 16 and starting out in racing. It was the most bike I could afford, and I thought it was glorious -- Shimano 600 and FiR wheels.
Anyway, many years later -- almost 20, I believe -- the seat tube cracked below the lug and I took it to the shop I bought it, and they replaced the frame and swapped over all the components as much as they could (downtube shifters weren't an option).
#39
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#40
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I'm saying that while lots of folks can probably name one or two framebuilders who have done this sort of work, the likelihood of your being able to find one of those framebuilders who is available and willing to take on the project in a timely manner when you find yourself in sudden need of a frame repair is vanishingly small. And that's based on the same anecdotal empiricism that ^^^those three names above came from: I know at least four other cyclists -- plus myself, btw -- who, over the past ~12 years tried to find a reputable framebuilder who would do this sort of repair project and ultimately gave up because we couldn't find anyone willing to take on the job.
iow, the issue isn't really that no one can do the work; it's that the number of places that can do the work is vastly smaller than the number of folks on the internet claiming that "it's an easy fix, there are plenty of places that can do it!"
iow, the issue isn't really that no one can do the work; it's that the number of places that can do the work is vastly smaller than the number of folks on the internet claiming that "it's an easy fix, there are plenty of places that can do it!"
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#41
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I'm saying that while lots of folks can probably name one or two framebuilders who have done this sort of work, the likelihood of your being able to find one of those framebuilders who is available and willing to take on the project in a timely manner when you find yourself in sudden need of a frame repair is vanishingly small.
It's also worth noting that another supposed advantage [sic] of lugged construction that seems to get a lot of traction on the internet is in fact a myth:
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
#43
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Besides, filet is already really tender and braising would turn it into mush.
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#44
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I have a TIG-welded Ritchey Road Logic. The welds are fairly small, especially compared to the ones on my Cannondale (big, filed/sanded down smooth) or Litespeed (stack of dimes), and don't draw attention to themselves like lugs or fillet brazing. It's a simpler look, and given that the bike is 26 years old and has tens of thousands of miles on it, ridden by a big fat bastard, and is still in great condition, I conclude that TIG welding done right is plenty strong. Obviously, so is lugged or filet brazed, also if done right.
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#45
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I'm saying that while lots of folks can probably name one or two framebuilders who have done this sort of work, the likelihood of your being able to find one of those framebuilders who is available and willing to take on the project in a timely manner when you find yourself in sudden need of a frame repair is vanishingly small. And that's based on the same anecdotal empiricism that ^^^those three names above came from: I know at least four other cyclists -- plus myself, btw -- who, over the past ~12 years tried to find a reputable framebuilder who would do this sort of repair project and ultimately gave up because we couldn't find anyone willing to take on the job.
iow, the issue isn't really that no one can do the work; it's that the number of places that can do the work is vastly smaller than the number of folks on the internet claiming that "it's an easy fix, there are plenty of places that can do it!"
iow, the issue isn't really that no one can do the work; it's that the number of places that can do the work is vastly smaller than the number of folks on the internet claiming that "it's an easy fix, there are plenty of places that can do it!"
Below is what you posted earlier and what I responded to.
Plus, just try to find a competant and experienced framebuilder to take on that sort of repair work! I don't doubt there are hacks who might accept the challenge, but real artisans? Naw. It's a red herring.
You then move the goal posts and claim it will be difficult to find someone who can repair thee frame quickly.
Um...OK, that is a totally different point than what you said earlier. Like not even close to the same point.
Tldr- you posted a baseless comment, got clowned, and you are now trying to pivot rather than take the L.
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#47
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Others lash out, deflect, and dismiss.
#48
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Ostensible goalpost-moving and bickering aside, if you own a high-quality (Reynolds, Columbus, etc.) steel bike and you're looking for a frame builder willing to repair the frame, you're probably in luck if near a high-population area. If not, probably not.
You can always ship a frame to a frame builder and ride your spare bike, assuming that you're not out on tour somewhere. If you are on tour in a remote area, you have to hope you find, e.g., a service station with a welder who knows how to repair thin-walled steel tubes without burning through or otherwise severely damaging the tubes.
You can always ship a frame to a frame builder and ride your spare bike, assuming that you're not out on tour somewhere. If you are on tour in a remote area, you have to hope you find, e.g., a service station with a welder who knows how to repair thin-walled steel tubes without burning through or otherwise severely damaging the tubes.
#49
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The longevity of a fabricated mechanical device depends on how it is engineered. Any frame manufacturer can make mistakes. If the person making the bicycle frame does not make any mistakes then it will not matter how they join the tubes together, the life of the frame will be infinite for all practical purposes. There are literally hundreds of thousands of old steel bike frames out there which have outlived their original owners and their original front sprockets and other components, and enough of them which have outlived multiple owners and sets of components.