OldsCOOL

I searched for a date code and just cant find one even when looking on the inside. Help me out and I’ll gladly look again.

Santuri32

Not hoping to wander off topic, but the RD-DE20 Tricolor was the Deore Touring precursor of the perhaps beefier spring and new cage Deore XT Rd-m700, does any one has documentation about the Deore SP?, was this an experiment or a modified paint over the tricolored emblem?

Santuri32

My pleasure, look behind the parallelogram, near the cage pivot, see inside circle

date code on my pic.

OldsCOOL

Ahhh there it is.

Ok, one has a code and that is the used one I have. It shows what looks to be “lE”. The other, which is in my posted pic above, shows no date stamp.

T-Mar

In 2007 Shimano commissioned a video celebrating the 25th anniversary of Deore XT and, by association, mountain biking. It specifically states Deore XT as having been introduced in 1982. We know this is a calendar year, as Deore XT is not in the 1982 catalogue and all the other generations of Deore XT in the video are listed by calendar year.. Very interesting video for glimpses of ATB pioneers in action.

Video here; Shimano - Celebrating 25 Great Years

Santuri32

IE indicates May of 1984, does it still says Pat. Pending under the Celeron plate under the adjustment screws? Also would it be possible for you to take a picture of the non-stamped version. I'm not sure what that means, but it could be those were test models made in late '82 when they introduced them maybe in Japan?, taking their MountainBikes development collaborators' January 8 1983 date as the first time these were available in the USA. my un-stamped levers are slightly different, can you tell any differences between your stamped and non-stamped derailleurs, mayb share side by side pics, if possible to you.

Thanks

Santuri32

Thanks for sharing it T-Mar, the video is great, but none of those klunkers in the initial seconds had any Shimano parts in them unless perhaps a UG chain. IMHO and to the best of my understanding there was no Mountain Bike group for the model year 1982 mountain bikes, as for example; Specialized was using Suntour AR and ARX, MountainBikes company bikes were using VX and Duopar and Schwinn was using AG Tech and Schwinn" Huret in mix with Mafacs and in 1983 most bikes were using Suntour's Mountech.

To make it sound more accurate Shimano could have specified 1982 as the year they developed the XT, but it was not until 1983 when they introduced it to the USA market (per MountainBikes Ad, and Jan '83 Shimano Brochure) and it was 1984 when Shimano co-dominated the MTB market with Suntour, from there on they did took off. As a company they may claim whatever benefits them, and they may be generalizing DEORE introduction as XT. I love these Shimano parts, don't get me wrong, its just this is how it sounds fair to me.

The XT 730 SIS was introduced in 1987, it appears in a December 1986 catalog, and it was develop before 1987. So if following the same line used for the m700 group Shimano could have claimed they introduced the 730 group in '86.

Now show me the missing 1982 Shimano XT brochure.

OldsCOOL

The one on the left is date marked. It does have “pat pending” on both of them. The one on the right is in unused condition, identical (or close to it) from my quick comparison. Here is a side-by-side. This is rather interesting.

OldsCOOL

Another tidbit for you. The unused RD came from a friend building a touring bike so he and wife could go cross country. That was early 80s so it appears the parts he gave me, along with the bike included unused parts, yup I got his parts box to add to mine.

This is a Deore XT front derailleur box with instructions included that is stamped 1983 at the bottom.

Santuri32

It may be a matter of the position in the photo but what I notice is that the the top pulley bolt on the one on the right is larger that the one on the left, could you confirm this?


I was able to find one on my parts that is not stamped behind the parallelogram, but it is stamped inside of the pulley cage as HF (June 1983), see inside circle in picture

OldsCOOL

Yes, my unstamped (on right in my pic) has the same HF on the cage. Upper pulley bolts appear same size (short of my running out to the shop to check)

TenGrainBread 

The SP branding was exclusively for Schwinn's Voyageur SP touring bike at that time. I don't think there was anything functionally different about it. In the 70s and 80s Schwinn branded tons of Shimano components for their OEM spec.

Santuri32

Thank you, I didn't knew that, I looked at the Schwinn online catalogs and it was only used on the 1982 Voyageur SP. I did see a 1982 Moots with one on the rear and thought it might have been made for that company, I'm glad you clarified that.

The Golden Boy 

FWIW- the 1984, and possibly the 1985 Voyageur SPs were Shimano-less builds... Not a Shimano component on there.

The Golden Boy 

Have you talked to Charlie Kelly about any of this?

He pops in here from time to time.

T-Mar

ATB groups definitely existed in 1982. When SunTour introduced their "DIRT" ensemble, it consisted of AG & MounTech derailleurs, thumb shifters, wide range freewheel, sealed cartridge bearing bottom bracket, pedals and hubs. They were generally paired with Sugino TAT crankarms and Dia-Compe 980 cantilevers from SunTour's JEX partners.

If you take January 1983 as the market introduction for Deore XT, then SunTour ATB products were available in mid-1982, as Frank Berto is on record stating that, "The Deore XT gruppo came out half a year later than Sun Tour's MounTech...". Being a mid-1982 introduction, it was too late for the 1982 models but in plenty of time to spec'd on the 1983 models being built in late 1982. It was spec'd on several 1983 models including the Mount Fuji LTD and Miyata Ridge Runner. Extant sample of these with late 1982 serial numbers have surfaced and MounTech derailleurs with date codes as early as May 1982 have been reported.

So, dedicated ATB components did exist in 1982. Shimano may have lost the 1st battle in the ATB war with their Japanese rival but they would eventually win the decade long war. Keep searching and I'm convinced that you will even find some Deore XT with late 1982 component date codes.

T-Mar

I would think that if SBI had been instrumental in developing Deore XT, that they would have spec'd it on their 1983 models. However, neither the Stumpjumper nor Stumpjumper Sport were spec'd with any Deore XT. You don't even see it on the 1984 models, with the exception of the brakes.

For me, the circumstantial evidence has always pointed towards Gary Fisher as being the leading candidate. In addition to being an ATB pioneer, Fisher had been a tester with Bicycling magazine. When Shimano wanted an industry insider for ATB promotion, Fisher was their go-to guy. He was the prime interviewee in the Deore XT 25th anniversary video and the ATB article that appeared in the 1983 Shimano World issue featuring the original Deore XT group. Then there are the 1984 MountainBikes advertisements which state," We selected the finest manufacturer of off-road components and worked with them to develop the Shimano Deore XT line". Finally, the 1983 Deore XT advertisments feature a rider, who is unfortunately photographed from the rear but is wearing headgear reminiscent of what Fisher wore during the era. Hmmm.

stardognine

Yep, I finally watched that film yesterday morning, & couldn't help noticing how much Gary Fisher was highlighted. 😎 I wonder where Keith Bontrager fit into things. 🤔 To my limited knowledge, they were both big names, presumably around the same time. 🤔

Santuri32

So yes and no there where ATB components in 1982, they had been made but none made the cut for a manufacturer needing to sell a fully spec’d bike with a particular set of components, the case of Specialized, Univega, and Schwinn for example. MountainBikes where specifying XT in '83 catalog bikes but buyers had options of choosing other components and they probably did since we usually hesitate to try something new and opt for the old faithful. We are dealing with some terms here Development, Announcement, and Introductionwith the last sometimes used indiscriminately to refer to announcement and advertisement floating between timelines.


I believe we should agree that in 1982, Shimano and Suntour were developingtheir first all-terrain bicycle components, it is also likely both companies were announcingtheir components to bike companies in 1982 as well, and perhaps advertising them. Printed material nearly came simultaneously within a month difference (AFAWK, see picture), but at the moment of introduction, sold bikes in 1983 tells you that Suntour was there strongly either because they beat Shimano in time, which was what happened (see Frank Berto and bicycle catalogs), or manufacturers or buyers of these early bikes may have stuck with old faithful, at least that year.

What is difficult for us is to learn when these parts made it here in the USA. Summer '82 for Suntour, January '83 for Shimano as components?

Business practices played a part on what was on the market. These parts made it here in fully spec’d bikes manufactured in Japan, Suntour Cyclone in 1982 Univega Sport vs Suntour Mountech, Superbe Tech, and AG Tech in Univega Alpina trio in '83; Suntour AR or ARX in '82 Stumpjumper vs Suntour Mountech in '83 Stumpjumper (except XT cantilevers).

Schwinn King Sting '82 and in '83 Sierra Suntour AG Schwinn (they were struggling). From custom American bicycle manufacturers (Fat Chance, Moots, Ibis, Mantis, among others) I have not seen literature from 1982, except a late ’83 from Moots that spec’d XT and a 1983 bike featuring that group as well. MountainBikes being the exception, with Shimano XT spec’d bikes, although listing other brand options in their brochure.

Business practices did influenced the odds of finding these parts in mountain bikes in the USA. In 1983, with exception of American made MountainBikes most of the "50,000" all-terrain bikes that you would see were Japanese imports and mostly came with Suntour components.

This is a great conversation, and yes I’m sure I’ll find ’82 stamped XT gear.

Santuri32

I would not like to assume Shimano only relied on MountainBikes for the development of their first mountain component group, they probably learn of all the companies ordering mountain bikes from Japan and were strategic in which companies to collaborate with. MountainBikes was likely the most experienced company they would have collaborated with.

But I am convinced those are Stumpjumper frames on their early brochures, and 1983 Stumpjumpers did in fact featured XT cantilevers as well as their Expedition. Although this literature is unobtanium, the 1984 catalog I saw had two Deer Head XT equipped models, and in my opinion their model code make reference to Shimano components. For release in Feb. ’84 they announced the Sport XT (Shimano XT?) featuring silver-color shifters and cantilevers and XT levers and RDs and for Mar. ’84 release they announce the availability of a limited and top of the line Stumpjumper SC (Shimano components?) which may had been the first bike to feature an XT Super Plate rear derailleur and black shifters and cantilevers. You can see these bikes if you search for 1984 Stumpjumer XT or 1984 Stumpjuper Sport XT and the earlier codes I have IA for super plate and HL for black cantilevers and black shifters came from one of these.

Santuri32

Revisiting T-Mar’s and my earlier comments about 1983 Stumpjumper featuring or not XT Deer Head components that year, we need to try to clarify what is a 1983 Stumpjumper.

This is my opinion that others may or not share, following their timeline is complicated ☹

Opinion 1: Only TIG StumpJumpers are ’82 model year bikes.

Justification: The Stumpjumper Sport was a 1983 model year bike that first arrive the Fall of ’82, with a initial built date of July ’82 (M2G). T-Mar can explain best about the manufacturer, I don’t have an opinion about that. Therefore, lugged top of the line Stumpjumpers from July-on are 1983.

In that regard:

T-Mar is right saying 1983 Stumpjumpers did not came with XT components, as early bikes (July-Nov. ’82 share ’82 (M2G-M2K) components (that is, Mafac, Suntour)

but also,

My comment is right as 1983 catalog spec’d the Stumpjumper (M2L-M3H?) and Stumpjumper Sport (M2H-?) with XT cantilevers.

Therefore 1983 Stumpjumpers are one of the first Japan imported bikes featuring XT Deer Head and combined with the Suntour Dirt Group at that.

Since the first ’83 Stumpjumper with XT cantilevers was the December ’82, these may have cantilevers with date codes withing a month or two each way of the frames and are a good source to find ’82 coded XT cantilevers. Even earlier, it would be possible that SJ Sport made after July ’82 featured XT (catalog says cantilevers only), I’m not 100% certain whether up to a point they came with DiaCompe cantis. Nevertheless, these initial batches of ’83 bikes were some of the first bikes carrying Deer Head components.

I am not as familiar with the ’83 Expedition, it might be a similar story… bike forum member djkashuba has a tread about a ’83 Expedition featuring Mountech derailleurs and XT Cantilevers, and may be reached to provide cantilever brake date codes and a bike month.

Is then possible that:

1. XT cantilevers were the first part of the XT Deer Head group available, being featured in some Japanese imports from late ‘82

2. Or the whole group was available late in ’82 and companies had to decide what group to use.

If (2) is the case then Shimano may be right to claim ’82 was the introduction date (calendar year) of the XT Deer Head group (for ’83 model year bikes), although it also strengthens the notion that they lose the race to be the first mountain group to Suntour.

T-Mar

Even if we operate on the assumption that SBI made a mid 1983 model year (very early 1983 calendar year) switch to Deore XT cantilever brakes, they were almost certainly not the first to use Deore XT components. The MountainBikes McKinley appears in print as being spec'd with Deore XT, at a time when SBI literature still shows MAFAC brakes on the Stumpjumper and Stumpjumper Sport. MountainBikes was even more committed to Deore XT in 1984.

It makes sense that if SBI was going to spec any Deore XT component, it would be the brakeset, as it had about 15% higher mechanical advantage than the MAFAC or Dia-Compe 980. It was clearly the best off-road brakesets at the time.

However, the other Deore XT components did not have any advantage. The rear derailleur did not have SunTour's slant parallelogram or the 2nd parallelogram of Sun Tour's MounTech and Huret's Duopar. The Achille's Heel of the Mountech was not yet apparent and the MounTech was seen as higher technology and better performing. The Deore XT crankset was a holdover from the Deore Touring group and modeled after the venerable TA triple. However, it's thunder had been stolen by Sugino's TAT and clones, such as the Takagi XT., An added bonus was SunTour's sealed cartridge bearing bottom bracket. SunTour was also able to play the sealed cartridge bearing trump card with its hubs, while Shimano relied on traditional ball and cone technology with wiper seals.

Even worse for Shimano, when it came to SBI, the latter were marketing off-road compatible triple cranksets and sealed cartridge bearing hubsets. They were clearly in direct competition in these areas. Given this, it's questionable how much input they would have provided Shimano in the development of Deore XT.

Santuri32

Who wouldn't love a time machine. I am missing the 1982 McKinley with full XT from my literature, would you be so kind to fill gaps in the timeline I have been able to make so far? (italics show first mention of XT cantilevers or components. Thanks

Mid 1982 (July?) MountainBikes Catalog

· Shows price list of bike components effective July 1, 1982, but the only Shimano component is the Uniglide II chain and Uniglide 14-28 gold or 14-32 black freewheel.

· Only Shimano component on McKinley, Tamalpais, and Sierra is the Shimano Uniglide II chain

Fall 1982 Specialized Catalog (early 1983 model year) “Dated 1982, but without a month”

· Shows picture of Stumpjumper of April-June 1982 fabrication (Mafacs on Pics & text, but not spec’d in component sheet)

· Announces Stumpjumper Sport Model (earliest frame codes July 1982)

· Describes brakes in both Stumpjumpers as “Cantilevers” only

· Catalog insert introducing Expedition describes brakes as Shimano XT cantilevers

January 1983 Shimano Touring Component large format brochure

· Introduces Shimano Deore XT Series “For an all-new off-road bike”, showing a 1982 or 83 Stumpjumper in green with full XT components. Is the all-new off-road bike the Stumpjumper?

January 1983 MountainBikes Mount Tam Ordering form

· Deore XT advertisement with prices effective in January 8, 1983

· Mount Tam advertised on sale with Suntour Vx RD, Simplex FD, and XT Cantilevers

January/February 1983 Fat tyre flyer vol 3, no. 1- Ross ad shows RedCay model with full Shimano XT

· MountainBikes ad about the Shimano XT Gruppo.

· MountainBikes ad about bike with XT Cantilevers, shifters shown are not XT.

Mid 1983 (May?) MountainBikes Price list (Effective May 28, 1983)

· Details prices for Deer Head Components

Mid 1983 (after May 28?) K & F MountainBikes

· Mount Tam and Everest equipped with XT Gruppo

· Competition equipped with Suntour Cyclone GT II RD, Cyclone FD, and “Mountech shifters”

June 1983 Specialized Specifications sheet

· Specifies cantilevers in both Stumpjumpers are Shimano XT Cantilevers

1983 undated Shimano AD with Mountain Bike and Touring bike

· Shows a likely Blue Stumpjumper (top left) with bullmoose, full XT and a Tourer (far right) not able to tell what.

This is a sideline but interesting nevertheless.

T-Mar

I'm familiar with this advertisement. This does not appear to be a Stumpjumper, as it clearly does not have rack mountings on the upper seat stays and has a cable hanger bridge made from flat strip. The early Stumperjumpers with this style of bridge had rack mounts on the upper stays made from small, flat plates. By the time of this advertisement, SBI had changed to the tubular style cable hanger bridge and they still had rack mounts on the upper stays but were eyelet style. The latter style of bridge and rack mounts were also used on the Stumpjumper Sports. Regardless, the absence of rack mounts on the upper stays indicates that the bicycle in this Shimano Deore XT advertisement is something other than an SBI Stumpjumper variant.

Santuri32

It’s very hard for me to see those details clearly from my poor resolution copy (see pics) would you mind sharing a higher resolution picture?

I agree, I can not see the rack tabs (sawed off to disguise it a bit?) or both are round and not apparent given the angle?

The January ’83 Shimano ad shows a 82-‘83 Stumpjumper made before Dec. ’82, do you know the month of this ad?, in case we are talking about the same ad.