Building a road bike: Still worth it to go rim over disc?
06-25-23, 04:15 PM
#51
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The performance, feel and modulation of hydraulic disc brakes is superior to rim brakes in my opinion, but not necessarily enough to account for the higher cost.
Maintenance of hydraulic disc brakes is more fiddly, I prefer to swap a brake cable to doing a brake bleed.
The simplicity and lower cost to buy and maintain rim brakes makes them attractive to me.
If you ride in rainy conditions or down long hills then go with disc brakes.
Maintenance of hydraulic disc brakes is more fiddly, I prefer to swap a brake cable to doing a brake bleed.
The simplicity and lower cost to buy and maintain rim brakes makes them attractive to me.
If you ride in rainy conditions or down long hills then go with disc brakes.
06-25-23, 04:21 PM
#52
Senior Member
By verbally attacking one person instead of simply discussing his / her statements.
"Laughable" here is equivalent of "bullying". Verbally, of course.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
Last edited by Redbullet; 06-25-23 at 04:25 PM.
06-25-23, 04:59 PM
#53
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It’s the arrogant way he attempts to ridicule those who choose the newer tech he hates that I find objectionable. It’s not that he prefers rim brakes and tubulars etc. There’s just no reason to justify his own preferences by crapping on those who prefer alternatives. I’m also pretty sure his personal experience of modern disc brakes and tubeless tyres is zero.
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06-25-23, 05:07 PM
#54
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By verbally attacking one person instead of simply discussing his / her statements.
"Laughable" here is equivalent of "bullying". Verbally, of course.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
"Laughable" here is equivalent of "bullying". Verbally, of course.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
He would ignore the info that straight up showed his claims were baseless and would repeat those baseless claims.
He has consistently overstated the weight difference between rim and disc frames, forks, wheels, rims, and spokes. Oh, and also repeatedly used extreme cost examples rather than typical ones.
Further, he has also continually misclaimed how important bike weight is when it comes to speed.
Again, everything has been countered many times with actual info. Go criticize him for a refusal to accept reality is different from his claims.
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06-25-23, 05:15 PM
#55
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06-25-23, 05:19 PM
#56
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By verbally attacking one person instead of simply discussing his / her statements.
"Laughable" here is equivalent of "bullying". Verbally, of course.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
"Laughable" here is equivalent of "bullying". Verbally, of course.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
Claims disc brakes add 2 pounds? Totally wrong.
Says tubeless is inappropriate unless of course you are so inept that you can't change a flat
Says wider tires have higher rolling resistance.
All totally wrong. I thought he was joking. That is how off base and in left field his post squares with science. And hydraulic disc brakes stop much faster than any high end rim brake that I have had although I find them a PITA, their performance is better and it quite rare to hear an opinion otherwise and all the testing I have seen show superior braking performance, to the extent it is not even challengeable
06-25-23, 05:37 PM
#57
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But for your own use it is actually very easy to calculate the effect of weight on climbing and acceleration and decide whether or not you think it is very important.
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06-25-23, 05:38 PM
#58
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As a cyclist who started road cycling in 1972: I like my older bikes. I have a mid 1980's steel road bike that is a pleasure to ride. I have 2 Look carbon fibre road bikes from the mid 2000's that I love to ride. I acquired them when I was still racing. My touring bike was my commuter before I retired. All these bikes are great to ride in almost all conditions and they all have rim brakes. I have descended some pretty big mountains including one, the Col de Paiheres with one of my rim brake bikes. This descent famously scared Thibaut Pinot so much that he lost 5 minutes to the rest of the peloton during the Tour de France. It is a dangerous, bumpy twisting descent with switchbacks near the top. The group I was with stopped a couple of times to cool our rims on the way down. At high speeds on the bumpy road the whole bike was shuddering when the brakes were applied. When I bought a new bike last year, I didn't give rim brakes a moment's consideration. I wanted better brakes that would work in all weather and with any rim material, Even though I am older i like a lot of newer tech. Carbon rims? Check as long as I have disc brakes. Tubeless tires? Check, been running road tubeless for 12 years. Carbon frames? My first carbon bike was purchased in 2004. Wider tires? My rim brake bikes all sport the widest tires that fit. My new bike is a gravel bike with big fat tubeless tires. I haven't gone to electronic shifting....... yet. If I were to buy or build a new bike today I wouldn't even look at rim brakes. I have them on other bikes, they work fine but they are a few steps behind current disc brakes
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06-25-23, 05:50 PM
#59
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He has made the same handful of claims over and over again. I used to take time to respond with actual details like weight, cost, measured performance, etc as a way to counter his general claims.
He would ignore the info that straight up showed his claims were baseless and would repeat those baseless claims.
He has consistently overstated the weight difference between rim and disc frames, forks, wheels, rims, and spokes. Oh, and also repeatedly used extreme cost examples rather than typical ones.
Further, he has also continually misclaimed how important bike weight is when it comes to speed.
Again, everything has been countered many times with actual info. Go criticize him for a refusal to accept reality is different from his claims.
He would ignore the info that straight up showed his claims were baseless and would repeat those baseless claims.
He has consistently overstated the weight difference between rim and disc frames, forks, wheels, rims, and spokes. Oh, and also repeatedly used extreme cost examples rather than typical ones.
Further, he has also continually misclaimed how important bike weight is when it comes to speed.
Again, everything has been countered many times with actual info. Go criticize him for a refusal to accept reality is different from his claims.
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06-25-23, 06:41 PM
#60
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06-25-23, 07:10 PM
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By verbally attacking one person instead of simply discussing his / her statements.
"Laughable" here is equivalent of "bullying". Verbally, of course.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
"Laughable" here is equivalent of "bullying". Verbally, of course.
Text argument: "Bike weight is the biggest factor in road performance": I'd say it is arguable that this is the "biggest" factor, but it is a very important factor. My opinion. For me it is not a surprise that professional riders still pay huge money for that.
Now, I'll stop here with this topic: I said what I had to say and, of course, you are free to say anything you need to say.
You can stop all you want, you are also laughably wrong.
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06-25-23, 07:39 PM
#62
Senior Member
I wouldn't count on the current disc frames to be compatible with future disc brakes more than I believe rim brake parts will always be kicking around. Look how many disc brake mounting standards have come and gone, never mind the options in rotor sizes. Wait until the brake signal is electrical and it pulsate like a car's ABS? Think a 2023 disc frame will support that?
So, if tire clearance is important, with rim brakes you're limited. It's not much trouble getting a steel frame from the early 80s that will clear 700x35 no sweat, but if you want something carbon, you're out of luck or down to slim chances.
But if 700x25 works, yeah, go with a rim brake frame for sure. You can lock up your tires with rim brakes just fine, or feel your way just short of that point and stop as fast as tires allow. Pro riders have done descents on rim brakes that a normal person wouldn't do on twice the time regardless of brake type. And if you're thinking I've missed the point -- the brakes are to slow you down, not make you go faster -- that's not how racing works.
Last edited by ljsense; 06-25-23 at 07:44 PM.
06-25-23, 07:56 PM
#63
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Maybe you could list all those disc brake mounting standards that have come and gone for road bikes?
06-25-23, 08:11 PM
#64
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Someday they will figure out that the optimal rotor size is actually x and y, which matches no previous standard.
Then, once we build rotors with a metallic--composite-metallic sandwich, they can be thicker but still weigh less, have a carved aerodynamic leading edge, as well as ISO-CRUX jingilation.
Then there will be electric brakes which actually recover energy from braking and use it vibrate your saddle. But not with any 2023 frames.
06-25-23, 08:16 PM
#65
Senior Member
It's like the movie "Whiplash" where the talented drummer keeps running through it hard as he can, only to be told time and time by the narcissistic conductor: "not quite my tempo." Your new bike will never be quite the tempo of next year's catalog.
Save yourself a ton of money and ride a better bike by actually measuring how well something works versus its cost.
Save yourself a ton of money and ride a better bike by actually measuring how well something works versus its cost.
06-25-23, 08:17 PM
#66
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You're right, it's already too many to count.
Someday they will figure out that the optimal rotor size is actually x and y, which matches no previous standard.
Then, once we build rotors with a metallic--composite-metallic sandwich, they can be thicker but still weigh less, have a carved aerodynamic leading edge, as well as ISO-CRUX jingilation.
Then there will be electric brakes which actually recover energy from braking and use it vibrate your saddle. But not with any 2023 frames.
Someday they will figure out that the optimal rotor size is actually x and y, which matches no previous standard.
Then, once we build rotors with a metallic--composite-metallic sandwich, they can be thicker but still weigh less, have a carved aerodynamic leading edge, as well as ISO-CRUX jingilation.
Then there will be electric brakes which actually recover energy from braking and use it vibrate your saddle. But not with any 2023 frames.
06-25-23, 08:19 PM
#67
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Rim brakes: cantilever, single pivot, dual pivot, direct mount, centerpull, U brakes, V Brakes, Delta brakes, and probably more
Disc brakes: 160mm rotors and two different caliper mount configurations. That's it.
Disc brakes: 160mm rotors and two different caliper mount configurations. That's it.
06-25-23, 08:23 PM
#68
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You're right, it's already too many to count.
Someday they will figure out that the optimal rotor size is actually x and y, which matches no previous standard.
Then, once we build rotors with a metallic--composite-metallic sandwich, they can be thicker but still weigh less, have a carved aerodynamic leading edge, as well as ISO-CRUX jingilation.
Then there will be electric brakes which actually recover energy from braking and use it vibrate your saddle. But not with any 2023 frames.
Someday they will figure out that the optimal rotor size is actually x and y, which matches no previous standard.
Then, once we build rotors with a metallic--composite-metallic sandwich, they can be thicker but still weigh less, have a carved aerodynamic leading edge, as well as ISO-CRUX jingilation.
Then there will be electric brakes which actually recover energy from braking and use it vibrate your saddle. But not with any 2023 frames.
06-25-23, 08:27 PM
#69
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The pro argument for road disc brake frames is that they usually have generous tire clearance.
I wouldn't count on the current disc frames to be compatible with future disc brakes more than I believe rim brake parts will always be kicking around. Look how many disc brake mounting standards have come and gone, never mind the options in rotor sizes. Wait until the brake signal is electrical and it pulsate like a car's ABS? Think a 2023 disc frame will support that?
So, if tire clearance is important, with rim brakes you're limited. It's not much trouble getting a steel frame from the early 80s that will clear 700x35 no sweat, but if you want something carbon, you're out of luck or down to slim chances.
But if 700x25 works, yeah, go with a rim brake frame for sure. You can lock up your tires with rim brakes just fine, or feel your way just short of that point and stop as fast as tires allow. Pro riders have done descents on rim brakes that a normal person wouldn't do on twice the time regardless of brake type. And if you're thinking I've missed the point -- the brakes are to slow you down, not make you go faster -- that's not how racing works.
I wouldn't count on the current disc frames to be compatible with future disc brakes more than I believe rim brake parts will always be kicking around. Look how many disc brake mounting standards have come and gone, never mind the options in rotor sizes. Wait until the brake signal is electrical and it pulsate like a car's ABS? Think a 2023 disc frame will support that?
So, if tire clearance is important, with rim brakes you're limited. It's not much trouble getting a steel frame from the early 80s that will clear 700x35 no sweat, but if you want something carbon, you're out of luck or down to slim chances.
But if 700x25 works, yeah, go with a rim brake frame for sure. You can lock up your tires with rim brakes just fine, or feel your way just short of that point and stop as fast as tires allow. Pro riders have done descents on rim brakes that a normal person wouldn't do on twice the time regardless of brake type. And if you're thinking I've missed the point -- the brakes are to slow you down, not make you go faster -- that's not how racing works.
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06-25-23, 09:44 PM
#70
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Here is a nice and balanced article on the subject from Rodriguez Bicyclez in Seattle (they know a thing or two about brakes):
https://www.rodbikes.com/articles/di...sco-fever.html
https://www.rodbikes.com/articles/di...sco-fever.html
06-25-23, 10:00 PM
#71
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
Do you have other bikes? Do they all have rim brakes? Is having interchangeable wheels a thing you would value? I have a stable of bikes that all have rim brakes, and I just bought some carbon tubeless-read rims from Light Bicycle because that's what all my bikes are and I'm happy with that. If I was starting without any bikes today AND I didn't vastly prefer the looks of C&V bikes (lugs and chrome for the win), I'd probably go disk because it has the most current options. I do value however keeping everything interchangeable (and don't have the budget to buy another new frame - especially when I have a couple more in the build queue than my wife would be happy to know about.).
06-25-23, 10:04 PM
#72
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
06-25-23, 10:07 PM
#73
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
While I'm not really on either bandwagon, I do wish that high end rim brakes were still an option. More options keeps more people happy, but such is the industry.
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06-25-23, 10:10 PM
#74
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
Lots of bickering and character assassination in this post makes the posters sound like a bunch of children but they are just being passionate (hopefully).
For brakes QUALITY hydraulic discs are the absolute best followed by QUALITY rim brakes. Being said Mechanical discs are as good as rim brakes BUT in the 15 years having them I would not by again. I found them annoyingly noisy, not great at stopping in HEAVY rain, even in mildly wet conditions they needed to be applied to "burn off" the water before they grabbed well, and needed adjusting every week. - none of which have I encountered with hydro brakes OR my rim brakes for that matter. FWIW I am a new convert to hydro disc brakes (1 year on a Trek 920) and have worked on rim brake bikes for 45 years as well as CX racing on rim brakes with 60mm carbon wheels. - they are all good if set up properly
My experience with electronic group sets is very limited but since they came out I have seen many fail on local group rides (one just from a pot hole ) - buy new if just for the warranty.
If I were to build a NEW bike it would be hydraulic disc for sure and NEW electronic shifting possibly. Maybe the new SRAM Rival AXS 1x, electronic and hydraulic disc for ~ $1000
For brakes QUALITY hydraulic discs are the absolute best followed by QUALITY rim brakes. Being said Mechanical discs are as good as rim brakes BUT in the 15 years having them I would not by again. I found them annoyingly noisy, not great at stopping in HEAVY rain, even in mildly wet conditions they needed to be applied to "burn off" the water before they grabbed well, and needed adjusting every week. - none of which have I encountered with hydro brakes OR my rim brakes for that matter. FWIW I am a new convert to hydro disc brakes (1 year on a Trek 920) and have worked on rim brake bikes for 45 years as well as CX racing on rim brakes with 60mm carbon wheels. - they are all good if set up properly
My experience with electronic group sets is very limited but since they came out I have seen many fail on local group rides (one just from a pot hole ) - buy new if just for the warranty.
If I were to build a NEW bike it would be hydraulic disc for sure and NEW electronic shifting possibly. Maybe the new SRAM Rival AXS 1x, electronic and hydraulic disc for ~ $1000
The passion is evident too! haha.
06-25-23, 10:24 PM
#75
Noob Bee
Thread Starter
Thank you all, and I'll try to analyze what I've read and what I feel might be the right thing for me to do, based on this advice. Also, to rescue this thread hopefully from getting into too much bickering!
Plus, this extra time required to save up for the more expensive groupset (my heart is saying Shimano Ultegra Di2 Hydro Disc w/ sprint shifters, but we'll see) will allow me to reflect and learn more about what I really want on a bike with the hope of it being my all things zippy long term bike.
- Rim brakes have a loyal group, and I do certainly buy that, for most of us, a quality rim brake will still go a long way.
- Disc brakes have improved performance in the rain and on hard descents, so if you do that regularly they are probably worth the money (although, to be fair, road cyclists were doing both those things on rim brakes for years already, so while performance is nice, it's probably more important to simply understand your bike and its performance).
- The industry evolves, and while it is moving to disc brakes predominantly, we don't necessarily know for sure if it will remain that way. It's not really a good argument to not adopt any new tech simply because it might be obsolete someday, but it can be frustrating to "keep up with the joneses" particularly when keeping up seems to escalate higher than inflation.
Plus, this extra time required to save up for the more expensive groupset (my heart is saying Shimano Ultegra Di2 Hydro Disc w/ sprint shifters, but we'll see) will allow me to reflect and learn more about what I really want on a bike with the hope of it being my all things zippy long term bike.