GhostRider62

How about you list 10 bikes with campy record or chorus rim or sram rim braked bikes.

It is you who is pretending. Out of 63 road bikes on Specialized site, one is rim and it is the cheapie bike. Same deal with Trek. One road bike with rim brakes, the cheap one.

Redbullet

Could be.
However, by not moving the body back behind the saddle, the guy probably lost more than 25% of the braking power available, for both rim and disk brakes and this is a bad mark for the test (see their older movie I posted). And even seated, there is no way to test whether he really applied the relevant force on the levers in any of the cases, respectively just a fraction below the force that could make him roll over the handlebar. I am not trying to convince you but, just for me, that was more a marketing demonstration than a real comparison. I felt the older movie to be closer to reality: good rim brakes (disks as well, I'm sure) have so much braking power available that you must carefully balance the pressure you apply. I think that one should not test the maximum pressure on the lever on rim brakes, even after moving the body back below the saddle, because it might still be too much power that might throw him over the handlebar. And again: I'm not an advocate of rim brakes, disks brakes also do that.

msu2001la

I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing, but maybe I am missing something here?
I would not buy a rim brake bike in 2023 and from what I can tell, the vast majority of people buying new bikes agree with that sentiment and the market has responded accordingly.

Redbullet

I didn't see that.
But still owning a good old bike with rim brakes makes me feel its future uncertain. Being also on the market this year for a bike (not "Campy" because it is too expensive and not in USA because it is not the case), I noticed that rim brakes versions available were only a few older types ("leftovers"), covering less than 5% of the offer.

GhostRider62

Apologies, I don't know how I got your post wrong but I screwed up. Sorry about that.

PeteHski

So now you're trying to say he's an incompetent rider and/or the whole thing was just a marketing sham. Basically you will come up with anything to disagree with the result because it doesn't fit with your simplistic idea that braking power (rim or disk) is essentially unlimited at any speed. But whatever you say about his technique, he still stopped considerably faster on the disc brakes. He wasn't pretending to be an amazing descender, but he's actually quite a modest guy and probably better than many people here. I really don't think the test was rigged either. It's not their style. But anyway it's there for info and I fully expected someone to trash it (unconvincingly).

SoSmellyAir

I am too considering a new (old stock) rim brake frame and have been watching this thread with interest. I preface my comments below with the observations that my local riding area is dry and relatively flat, with no long alpine descents.

The rim vs. disc brakes debate here reminds me a little of the handwringing over rim-braked CF wheels, which had unduly deterred me from upgrading to CF wheels for a while. However, after my first few (squealing) descents without my CF wheels assploding into melted strips of carbon fiber, I just got on with the increased comfort and sexiness of wider and deeper wheels.

Look, I am not disputing that disc brakes have better stopping power and modulation. But most of us did just fine prior to the advent of disc brakes, just as most of us drive around daily at much higher speeds without fitting the most powerful brakes available on our motor vehicles, right? Or are we all running Alcon or Brembo front brakes with (at least) 4 piston calipers and giant 355 mm brake rotors?

PeteHski

Car brakes tend to match the speed/power/weight/tyre grip of the car. When there is a mismatch it gets dangerous i.e. small brakes on a heavy powerful car. I suppose you could say the same for bikes in terms of rider weight, speed and riding conditions. A heavyweight rider on fast descents probably should choose discs. A lightweight rider on the flat should be fine on rim brakes. Then it comes down to other factors like tyre width preference, cost, availability/choice and even aesthetics for some.

Pros for rim brakes:

1. Cheaper
2. More simple to maintain
3. Lighter (only matters for competitive hill climb racing without min weight regulations)

Pros for disc brakes

1. Better overall braking performance (especially in the wet)
2. Allow wider tyres (in most cases)
3. More choice of modern frames, groupsets and wheels
4. No wheel rim wear

mstateglfr 

The quoted text in red is just absurd. It is apparently a miracle that for decades big riders didnt die at significantly higher frequency since their mismatching small brakes were dangerous. Come on now.
As a large rider, 6'5 225, I have never felt unsafe on rim brakes and have ridden all over the country in on varying road conditions with varying elevation changes and weather. Yes I know that my single experience is not applicable to everyone, so rest assured I am not claiming that. But still, literally nobody my size or larger has ever said to me 'these rim brakes are dangerous for me'.

Your pros lists for both styles is plenty of justification alone. There is no need to pull out some danger based argument that applies to maybe .05% of all miles ridden by bigger people each year.
Ability to use carbon rims and get excellent braking, ability to more easily use wider tires, ability to use higher level groupset - those 3 reasons alone hold plenty of validity for disc.

All my bikes except for my gravel bike are rim brake. I am not pushing for rim brakes though and genuinely love my hydraulic disc gravel bike. All that apparently needs to be said as context/disclaimer when wading into the dirty waters of 'rim v disc' threads.

SoSmellyAir

This morning, in solidarity with sir_crash_alot, I ordered this rim brake frame:

TIME FLUIDITY S TL RIM BRAKE FRAMESET - MD – TIME - SHOP (timebicycles.com)

PeteHski

I never intended to emphasise "danger" that much. It was just an analogy of matching brakes to riding speed and terrain in response to the post about why we don't all run massive Brembo race brakes on our daily drives. It was equally intended to say that disc brakes might be overkill for some riders.

But since you mentioned it, I know plenty of riders who would only take a disc bike to the Alps, including myself. Those same riders are happy to ride rim brake bikes elsewhere. Sometimes brakes really matter and sometimes they don't. That's one of the reasons why disc brakes on road bikes are so divisive. Some riders think they are massive overkill for their personal needs and others think they are a godsend.

genejockey 

Why do people keep reacting as if, by saying disc brakes are better, especially for heavier riders in hillier place, that they're saying rim brakes are crap, unsafe, etc? Just because something is BETTER doesn't mean the old stuff was ****. Similarly, just because the old stuff works doesn't mean the new stuff doesn't work better.

Jrasero

No unless money/weight/maintenance are your top priorities. Rim brake bikes can be lighter but even aero bikes are coming at 15lb-16lbs and now the Aethos has proven you can make a 14lb disc brake bike, granted all these bikes cost a pretty penny thus this is where rim brakes still could be valid. Also, while I love the performance of disc brakes the ability to run larger tires the maintenance of hydraulics sucks and is costly plus OEM pads can be $30+ and new rotors $120+. Also you have a real chance that your pads and rotors get contaminated, or your rotors get warped, or you spend hours getting your rotors to not rub. Rim brakes thus, IMO are easier to travel with. Rim brakes performance aren't as bad as people say they are but they are but that's only in ideal situations. Once you introduce dirt, mud, water, and snow and especially when you include carbon wheels, disc brakes 100% are better.

msu2001la

Similarly if the new stuff works better, and 95% of the market has moved on to the new stuff - why do people still want the old stuff? Why would anyone in 2023 hunt down one of the few remaining new rim brake framesets in order to build up a new bike that will immediately have limited wheel selection options, limited groupset options, narrow tire clearances and brakes that work somewhere between significantly worse and just slightly worse than what's otherwise available? To shave a few hundred grams? I fully appreciate the weight weenie movement, but this seems insane to me.

I'm also surprised that no one has brought up the "discs are dangerous meat slicers" argument in this thread yet. Has everyone moved on from that ridiculous claim?

genejockey 

Because you finally found a 1995 Litespeed Ultimate frame and fork in your size at a price you can afford, and it only take rim brakes, and you want to build it up with as modern a kit as possible?

SoSmellyAir

First, I don't know about 95%; in my area, my guess is 75%?

In my case above, it was the literal last chance to buy a coveted, relatively rare, and (somewhat) weight-weenie frame which has the perfect endurance geometry for me, at an apparently reasonable price, which can use many of the components installed on (and/or spare parts for) my existing rim brake bike.

sir_crash_alot

You kind of capture some of my internal waffling. Where I live there is dirt, gravel, snow, and all manner of wonky conditions. There are descents where you can hit a solid 65 kph if really send it. So based stricltly on conditions, disc brakes are the right choice.

However, as a rider, I prefer to do indoor training when conditions are poor. This includes the aforementioned weather conditions, as well as fogginess, haziness, and even days/times of heavy road traffic. On top of that, i'm a very careful descender. I rarely top out over 50 kph, and will feather the brakes consistently to keep it in that range. In my region, you just don't know when someone will be backing out of their driveway around the corner, and I adapt my riding to suit. Thus, on some level, rim brakes may actually suit my style of riding better (which is much more tailored to flat sprints and short, punchy climbs than descents).

Perhaps the biggest attraction for rim brakes to me, admittedly (and while shallow, I'll be upfront about it), is that there are some fantastic high-end carbon rim brake frames out there for an order of magnitude less than a disc brake frame. So much so that if you are okay with rim brakes in today's day and age and considering building a bike, it's hard to say no.

This one, for instance, has been keeping me up at night: https://www.ebay.com/itm/185919794730. For GBP 120.00 you could have a top end carbon rim brake frame with minimal use, having never been road used. It's made by Trigon, which (according to my research) has substantial experience in carbon manufacturing and makes high end bikes for other top companies we would never question the quality of (most notably Pinarello). Prices that low for good quality frames make me question how much I want disc brakes!

PeteHski

You seem more focused on cost, so maybe you should just get a low cost rim-braked frame and not worry about it. Another thing to consider (glancing at the frame you linked above) besides brakes is how comfortable you want this bike to be. That looks like it could be a real bone-shaker with thick aero seat post and full height seat stays etc. Especially if tyre clearance is limited and it probably is. Do you actually want a full-on aero bike?

Your riding conditions sound like they strongly favour a comfortable disc braked bike with relatively wide tyres. Your logic about rim-brakes suiting your cautious style of riding seems a bit dubious. It's like you are trying to convince yourself that the low cost and lower brake performance are a win-win rather than a compromise. The cost saving is genuine, but the rest seems like a mind game. If you are doing 50 kph and some ******** pulls out of their driveway unexpectedly then a few metres saved on braking could make a big difference.

mstateglfr 

Since I specifically took issue with a post about heavy riders, I am guessing your post is partially directed to me.
I disagreed with how the other post was worded- the post straight up claims a heavy rider and rim brakes is a mismatch and that is dangerous.

I agree that new stuff can work better. I have disc brakes on my gravel bike and my old gravel bike had canti brakes. I was never unsafe with the old bike's brakes and always stopped, but the current bike's disc brakes do work better.
Side note- the old gravel frame is now a commuter and has Vbrakes- it brakes better than before and is perfect for the way I ride the bike.

​​​​​​​

msu2001la

I'm not talking about what you see out on the road. The premise of this thread (as I understand it) seems to be buying a new rim brake frame and groupset. The groupsets are no problem because lots of people upgrade old frames and both SRAM and Shimano make rim brake versions of their stuff still - but finding a new rim brake road bike frame for sale is pretty rare now.

25% of the new road bike market is not rim brake. It's been pointed out in this thread already, but if you scan any major manufacturer's current offerings on their website and you'll find maybe 1 option with rim brakes- and the other 25 models are disc. 95% disc seems pretty correct to me.

genejockey 

Worth noting, thought, that it seems you live in Iowa. My recollection of Iowa from driving across it twice is that it's NOT flat, but it is rolling. So, no 3-6 mile, 6+% mountain descents. So your need for brakes would be different from someone who lives where we DO have that kind of descent routinely. Correct me if I'm wrong, please!

mstateglfr 

- While there are limited wheel options for a rim brake bike, there is an abundance of options. Relative to disc wheels there may be fewer rim wheel options, but its not like it is a struggle to find rim brake wheels at multiple price ranges.
- Limited groupset options is a genuine concern/frustration for sure. Well, limited higher level groupset options is what we should both say, since the lower levels will continue to offer rim brake compatibility. I can still buy a new Ultegra r8000 group for a decent price so that would get me many many years of use out of a rim brake frame.
- Narrow tire clearance really isnt a concern to me. My main road bike has rim brakes and can easily clear a 35mm tire, it is custom and built by me so that was part of the design. As for stock frame clearance...my wife's 2015 Cannondale Synapse clears 28mm tires, my oldest's 2019 Domane clears 28mm tires, and one of my other kids has a 2021 'BrandX' frame from CRC that clears 28mm and could handle larger. All are rim brake. Is 28mm no longer wide enough? I happen to ride 32mm tires on my main road bike, but have 28mm on a couple other road bikes and almost everyone I see at competitive group rides have 28mm tires with some using 25mm. If I had a frame that could only clear 23mm tires then sure that would be another story, but a ton of road frames over the last decade clear 28mm tires and those just arent narrow.
- Rim brakes are not as good as hydraulic disc brakes in the rain and/or on long steep descents. For the vast vast majority of people who ride a bike, neither of those scenarios is a concern. Most people dont ride their bike when it is raining. Most people dont go screaming down steep mountain descents. For those who do ride in the rain and/or do ride long steep descents, yes the option of good hydraulic disc brakes is really nice as it improves confidence for sure.


With all that out of the way, to actually answer your question- why do people still want the old stuff?
I genuinely think you are partially trolling by asking this. You dont troll though, which is why I have typed out balanced responses so far and will try to do the same for this question.
First- people wanting 'the old stuff' in cycling is no different from many other hobbies. Why do people collect vinyl? Why do people restore old cars? Why do people play old game consoles? Etc etc etc. New cars are better/faster/safer. New music devices are smaller, easier to use, more portable, etc. New game consoles are more immersive, faster, clearer, etc. And yet, there is a big appeal for the older stuff. Same goes for bikes. An entire forum on this site, one that is extremely active, is the c&v forum.
Second- why are you riding old tech acoustic bikes still? The new stuff uses electricity and is better- you can go faster and longer. Why do you want the old stuff? I say this with a bit of tongue in cheek, but it is also genuine- if you take the position that new tech is what people need to want, then why arent you following suit? You will likely claim there is a fundamental difference between ebike cycling and acoustic cycling and since they are then different things, you are not required to follow your own view. But really, its all just cycling and there is no difference. You are simply choosing to not use the latest tech and your reason really isnt important.
Apply that to your question in red.

Jrasero

If you only or mainly ride on a trainer yeah rim brakes 100% due to the lower cost and not needing the higher brake performance, but if you swap out your trainer and actually ride with it outdoors I would 100% go disc.

I personally hate the idea of carbon rim brakes, yeah they have come a long way but essentially they make no sense. Pads at a certain point will eat away at the brake track and after sustained breaking you do heat up the rim. I think delamination is over hyped with rim brake wheels but 100% not unthinkable. IMO carbon rim brake wheels become disposables like tires at a certain point and not something I would want to swap bike to bike over long period of time. In contrast, I have used a pair of carbon disc brakes on three bike builds and over thousands of miles with zero issue besides lining up the calipers

mstateglfr 

You are not wrong, it is a lot of climbing out of river valleys, but otherwise relatively flat/rolling. Climbs under 1mi for sure and rarely over 12%.
Yes conditions(terrain, weather, road quality, etc) play a big role in if you will see benefit or not from disc brakes.

I was just disagreeing with the generalized claim that it is dangerous for a bigger rider to use rim brakes.

sir_crash_alot

Correct.