Calories and cycling
#51
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I'm good with eating for pleasure, I have no desire to make eating into a chore, but I also don't need some chef going on and on about needing to make every meal special in some way. Lots of meals are just going to be a matter of fuel.
I'm seriously not into any kind of fitness "program". Probably a forum like that would just be bad for my morale. What I like about bicycling is it's both play and exercise.
I'm seriously not into any kind of fitness "program". Probably a forum like that would just be bad for my morale. What I like about bicycling is it's both play and exercise.
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That's just how bodybuilders with extremely low body fat get through another meal of chicken breasts and egg whites. It's like a mental game where you convince yourself that it really doesn't matter what it is or what it tastes like because it's just fuel. That's how some people avoid cravings and binge eating. It's like a business. You want to compete you have to adjust your mentality. You want the chocolate sauce or extra fries, it's going to hurt your business. It's just another way of thinking about food and it's purpose.
As they say, there's a fine line between bodybuilding (or professional cycling) and an eating disorder. I'm just a 60 year old guy trying to feel fit and not look every minute of my age. I would be sick of body building in a matter of a few weeks. It also has virtually no CV benefits, which I definitely want out of any fitness thing I do. Please note--I'm just saying it's not for me, I appreciate that's hard work and people obviously get benefits from it, so no need to defend it. My assumption is that people always know more about what works for them than I do. .
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I've had some times when I'm riding more than 250 miles a week for an extended period where I absolutely felt like the binge actually was helpful, and I didn't get any weight gain as a result. Those times were fun.
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I saw some threads regarding this, but it really didn't answer my thought about calories.
I biked about 30 minutes yesterday, with higher intensity, and averaged about 15 miles per hour. Keep in mind this is in a residential\neighborhood area, and there was quite a few stops and such. The longest stretch was 1 mile long, most other streets were like quarter to half a mile, before slowing and having to make a turn
My apple watch said i burned about 430 calories, online calculators all say roughly about the same thing. My heart rate was 135avg, and 150 max
Then on the other hand when I read power meter related calorie burn from people whom have a power meter, it seems like it is much less than that.
However it seems like power meter doesn't take into account, the heart rate or your age , gender, and weight.
So, how much calories do you think i really burned?
Also, is factors like gender, heart rate, and age not taken into account?
I biked about 30 minutes yesterday, with higher intensity, and averaged about 15 miles per hour. Keep in mind this is in a residential\neighborhood area, and there was quite a few stops and such. The longest stretch was 1 mile long, most other streets were like quarter to half a mile, before slowing and having to make a turn
My apple watch said i burned about 430 calories, online calculators all say roughly about the same thing. My heart rate was 135avg, and 150 max
Then on the other hand when I read power meter related calorie burn from people whom have a power meter, it seems like it is much less than that.
However it seems like power meter doesn't take into account, the heart rate or your age , gender, and weight.
So, how much calories do you think i really burned?
Also, is factors like gender, heart rate, and age not taken into account?
I guess I should add that heart rate is a reasonable surrogate for effort and the algorithms in our gizmos use it to estimate efficiency based on some model of its relationship to the mix of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism for an activity.
Last edited by MoAlpha; 07-20-21 at 12:53 PM.
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#55
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As a reminder, dietary calories are measured in units of energy. The dietary “calorie” is actually a kilocalorie for use in comparison with SI units of work, such as joules or kilojoules. one calorie = 4.184 Joules so one dietary calorie = one kilocalorie = 4.184 kJ.
As you will see in examples below, riders tend to be about 25% efficient at turning dietary calories consumed into useful pedaling work which would be measured again in units of energy. Most of the rest is ultimately dissipated as heat though there is also internal work done just moving the mass of legs, pedals and cranks at a particular cadence.
Power meters measure the instantaneous rate at which external work is being done on the pedals and is measured in Watts= Joules/sec.
For those interested, that internal power load and resulting internal work is strongly dependent on cadence, so at a given speed on the road (and external power load) the total load your body must power will be a higher level that is an increasing function of cadence.
So I presume that’s looking at pedaling at 200W for one hour. Total external work would be 200 J/ sec times 3600 sec = 720,000 J or 720 kJ. At 25% efficiency, that requires 4 x 720 kJ = 2,880 kJ of dietary energy consumed which is 2.880 kJ/ 4.184 kJ/kcal = 688 kcal = 688 dietary calories. The 25% figure is rough and varies a bit with individuals so don’t read more than two figures at most. Figure 700 dietary calories roughly.
Power is actually the rate at which work is being done, measured in watts or kW. Coincidentally, the factor of 4 from the 25% metabolic efficiency roughly cancels the 4.184 conversion factor of dietary calories or kcal to kJ. So, yes, one kJ of cycling work is roughly one dietary calorie consumed.
Probably more than folks wanted to see but there it is for folks who might wonder.
Otto
As you will see in examples below, riders tend to be about 25% efficient at turning dietary calories consumed into useful pedaling work which would be measured again in units of energy. Most of the rest is ultimately dissipated as heat though there is also internal work done just moving the mass of legs, pedals and cranks at a particular cadence.
Power meters measure the instantaneous rate at which external work is being done on the pedals and is measured in Watts= Joules/sec.
For those interested, that internal power load and resulting internal work is strongly dependent on cadence, so at a given speed on the road (and external power load) the total load your body must power will be a higher level that is an increasing function of cadence.
So I presume that’s looking at pedaling at 200W for one hour. Total external work would be 200 J/ sec times 3600 sec = 720,000 J or 720 kJ. At 25% efficiency, that requires 4 x 720 kJ = 2,880 kJ of dietary energy consumed which is 2.880 kJ/ 4.184 kJ/kcal = 688 kcal = 688 dietary calories. The 25% figure is rough and varies a bit with individuals so don’t read more than two figures at most. Figure 700 dietary calories roughly.
Power is actually the rate at which work is being done, measured in watts or kW. Coincidentally, the factor of 4 from the 25% metabolic efficiency roughly cancels the 4.184 conversion factor of dietary calories or kcal to kJ. So, yes, one kJ of cycling work is roughly one dietary calorie consumed.
Probably more than folks wanted to see but there it is for folks who might wonder.
Otto
I've always wondered, how solid is that 25% efficiency figure? It just doesn't seem logical to me to assume that doesn't vary a lot, so is there real evidence that it doesn't?
.
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The power meter gives you a very good estimate of the number of calories (energy) required to do the work of a ride. What it doesn't tell you is your efficiency at producing that energy from "calories" consumed, which determines how much less fat that ride made you or how much you'll need to eat for dinner to keep from wasting away (my problem). That parameter varies across individuals and states, most importantly the proportion of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism employed. Anaerobic metabolism is much less efficient, so harder efforts use more energy. I'm sure there are other effort-related factors that I'm not aware of.
I guess I should add that heart rate is a reasonable surrogate for effort and the algorithms in our gizmos use it to estimate efficiency based on some model of its relationship to the mix of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism for an activity.
I guess I should add that heart rate is a reasonable surrogate for effort and the algorithms in our gizmos use it to estimate efficiency based on some model of its relationship to the mix of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism for an activity.
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As they say, there's a fine line between bodybuilding (or professional cycling) and an eating disorder. I'm just a 60 year old guy trying to feel fit and not look every minute of my age. I would be sick of body building in a matter of a few weeks. It also has virtually no CV benefits, which I definitely want out of any fitness thing I do. Please note--I'm just saying it's not for me, I appreciate that's hard work and people obviously get benefits from it, so no need to defend it. My assumption is that people always know more about what works for them than I do. .
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I also lost almost 20 pounds in 4 weeks on a tour down under. When I went back into the office, colleague's jaws dropped. I wasn't trying to lose that much weight, it was the miles and spotty food availability. I got hungry a lot. That was 30 years ago. I hope my Gaul Bladder is ok
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You have to burn upwards of 3500 Calories to lose 1 lb of fat. Of course that's only if fat is supplying all your Calories expended on the ride which typically it isn't.
Any weight loss you see after even a two or three hour ride is going to be mostly water loss from sweat.
So my advice if cycling is for weight loss it to ride long and ride low effort rides. When I ride hard, I tend to want to eat more.
Weight is still Calories in vs Calories out. Don't get too wrapped up in what your device says you burned. If the scale is going the wrong way then consume less Calories or burn more Calories. But don't worry about the device accuracy for Calories burned. Worry about the trends.
If you track your food, do you really think those Calorie figures are accurate for every item every time? Calorie content widely varies among those food items and the charts and stuff are just averages. If we had a Calorie meter we could stick in them, then we'd have a whole new set of threads wondering why they got this reading from this apple and another reading from another apple and someone else will be answering about plums.
Any weight loss you see after even a two or three hour ride is going to be mostly water loss from sweat.
So my advice if cycling is for weight loss it to ride long and ride low effort rides. When I ride hard, I tend to want to eat more.
Weight is still Calories in vs Calories out. Don't get too wrapped up in what your device says you burned. If the scale is going the wrong way then consume less Calories or burn more Calories. But don't worry about the device accuracy for Calories burned. Worry about the trends.
If you track your food, do you really think those Calorie figures are accurate for every item every time? Calorie content widely varies among those food items and the charts and stuff are just averages. If we had a Calorie meter we could stick in them, then we'd have a whole new set of threads wondering why they got this reading from this apple and another reading from another apple and someone else will be answering about plums.
If you're trying to only consume a net of 2000 calories a day, that Coke you're thinking about is about 8% of that. That "Small" Whopper meal at Burger King? 2/3 of your calories for the day. Go for a walk around the block? Maybe you get back 100 calories, so it won't "make room for" the pie you want to eat. Sure, you can look at the nutritional info on anything you buy to eat. But mostly, people don't. When you have to enter everything you ate, and you see the total going up with every snack, you begin to understand how you gained weight and how much you can actually eat and still lose weight.
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I'll let you in on a secret - it's not about how accurate the calorie counters are. It's about thinking about how many calories are actually in what you eat, and putting that in the context of how much you can eat and still expect to lose weight.
If you're trying to only consume a net of 2000 calories a day, that Coke you're thinking about is about 8% of that. That "Small" Whopper meal at Burger King? 2/3 of your calories for the day. Go for a walk around the block? Maybe you get back 100 calories, so it won't "make room for" the pie you want to eat. Sure, you can look at the nutritional info on anything you buy to eat. But mostly, people don't. When you have to enter everything you ate, and you see the total going up with every snack, you begin to understand how you gained weight and how much you can actually eat and still lose weight.
If you're trying to only consume a net of 2000 calories a day, that Coke you're thinking about is about 8% of that. That "Small" Whopper meal at Burger King? 2/3 of your calories for the day. Go for a walk around the block? Maybe you get back 100 calories, so it won't "make room for" the pie you want to eat. Sure, you can look at the nutritional info on anything you buy to eat. But mostly, people don't. When you have to enter everything you ate, and you see the total going up with every snack, you begin to understand how you gained weight and how much you can actually eat and still lose weight.
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Man, it is so easy to lose track and get out of control. Like you said, it's not about a calorie counter. You just have to be cognizant of what you are eating. I used to work in an office where every birthday was celebrated with cake, people were randomly bringing in cookies, candy, and donuts almost every day. If you wanted a snack, all you had to so was walk around....all in good fun, but those little things add up over time. It's easy to forget about the 3 donuts and 5 cookies you had this week on top of your regular meals.
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It's really easy in a situation like that to eat an entire days calories in nothing but cookies and donuts. For me, the most dangerous time is when I'm working on something that requires pausing and thinking. Often I get up and walk around when I do that, and the next thing you know, you're in the Break Room, grabbing another donut....
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Yep, diet is more important than exercise. Many cyclists who pick up the sport to lose weight fail because they listen to all the "experts" who say you have to carbo load before a ride, then eat some sugary "energy" gel crap, a banana, and a PBJ sandwich every 30 minutes during a ride, then pig-out after a ride to recover.
I really think the OP is making a mistake by focusing on increased exercise for weight loss rather than on diet. It's much better to focus on your diet in order to lose weight and ride the bike to maintain your health.
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I don't recommend anyone eat a bodybuilder's diet. I was just saying that it is sometimes helpful to think of food as fuel and not entertainment or luxury. Eat clean. When trying to lose weight, two plain scrambled eggs is better than two eggs with cheese and grits. A grilled chicken breast with some spices is better than fried chicken. A glass of water is better than a Coke. Some people feel obligated to eat fancy, especially when eating out. I struggle with that also. It's even harder after a good workout. You feel you earned that big meal, but in reality you are probably just setting yourself back to where you were before.
Careful, you're getting close to "you're doing it wrong" territory with the "you" stuff at the end. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just saying I don't find eating "for entertainment" occasionally at all destructive with the really high level of activity I maintain. And I actually haven't set myself back with big meals after my giant workouts, if anything I just put on a bit more muscle.
I'm a pretty extreme case in respect to how much time per week I'm working out, so a lot of the stuff you're saying just really doesn't apply to me very much. I don't think much of what I say works for me would apply to many people, so I just describe it and people have the choice of trying it or not trying it.
I do think where these conversations go off the rails is when people start assuming they're the normal one. Everything I've read and seen about this is there really is no uniformity in how people make these things work successfully for them. That's why virtually all published diets and regimens are such failures, they're cookie cutter solutions for a very unruly species. Actually, this thread has been remarkably free of the condescending "it's simple" assertions, which is really refreshing.
I don't that you and I are really disagreeing here, just finding that we do very different things. Crossfit is something I wouldn't touch with a 20 foot pole, but I wouldn't have any reason to try to talk you out of it. I'm happy if it works for you.
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Stop obsessing about calories....Calories counting is completely unnecessary.
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I have no idea.
I also lost almost 20 pounds in 4 weeks on a tour down under. When I went back into the office, colleague's jaws dropped. I wasn't trying to lose that much weight, it was the miles and spotty food availability. I got hungry a lot. That was 30 years ago. I hope my Gaul Bladder is ok
I also lost almost 20 pounds in 4 weeks on a tour down under. When I went back into the office, colleague's jaws dropped. I wasn't trying to lose that much weight, it was the miles and spotty food availability. I got hungry a lot. That was 30 years ago. I hope my Gaul Bladder is ok
4 weeks isn't really what I'm talking about. It's going from morbidly obese to normal range. If you try to do that really fast, you can make yourself very sick. 20 pounds isn't trivial, but it's not massive weight loss.
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This is the part of the thread where people who have never been obese lecture people who used to be obese on how they lost weight wrong, and that they never should have gotten fat in the first place.
You won a genetic lottery, and think it means you have it all figured out.
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I've found that when I start feeling hungry, like right before dinner, is a great time to exercise. The act of exercising makes me non-hungry for a while - like maybe 30 minutes after exercise ends.
Both cycling and day hikes keep me away from home, and away from the fridge. If I start at say 10 AM until 3 PM, basically I'm missing lunch, so I'll take an energy bar or something, but that bar is less calories than a normal lunch and/or snacks. On day hikes, I might be out even longer, like from 10 - 6, and never stop for fast food.
Cycling also helps with motivation. When I commit to cycling, and really get into it, then I really want hills to be easier... which motivates me to watch diet and eat less. As a 6' 4" guy when I went from 225 to 190, hills became so much easier to get over at the lighter weight. It was the difference between feeling nauseous after steep hills vs. feeling pretty competent on the bike. It's so much more enjoyable to ride at a lower weight.
Both cycling and day hikes keep me away from home, and away from the fridge. If I start at say 10 AM until 3 PM, basically I'm missing lunch, so I'll take an energy bar or something, but that bar is less calories than a normal lunch and/or snacks. On day hikes, I might be out even longer, like from 10 - 6, and never stop for fast food.
Cycling also helps with motivation. When I commit to cycling, and really get into it, then I really want hills to be easier... which motivates me to watch diet and eat less. As a 6' 4" guy when I went from 225 to 190, hills became so much easier to get over at the lighter weight. It was the difference between feeling nauseous after steep hills vs. feeling pretty competent on the bike. It's so much more enjoyable to ride at a lower weight.
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Careful, you're getting close to "you're doing it wrong" territory with the "you" stuff at the end. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just saying I don't find eating "for entertainment" occasionally at all destructive with the really high level of activity I maintain. And I actually haven't set myself back with big meals after my giant workouts, if anything I just put on a bit more muscle.
I'm a pretty extreme case in respect to how much time per week I'm working out, so a lot of the stuff you're saying just really doesn't apply to me very much. I don't think much of what I say works for me would apply to many people, so I just describe it and people have the choice of trying it or not trying it.
I do think where these conversations go off the rails is when people start assuming they're the normal one. Everything I've read and seen about this is there really is no uniformity in how people make these things work successfully for them. That's why virtually all published diets and regimens are such failures, they're cookie cutter solutions for a very unruly species. Actually, this thread has been remarkably free of the condescending "it's simple" assertions, which is really refreshing.
I don't that you and I are really disagreeing here, just finding that we do very different things. Crossfit is something I wouldn't touch with a 20 foot pole, but I wouldn't have any reason to try to talk you out of it. I'm happy if it works for you.
I'm a pretty extreme case in respect to how much time per week I'm working out, so a lot of the stuff you're saying just really doesn't apply to me very much. I don't think much of what I say works for me would apply to many people, so I just describe it and people have the choice of trying it or not trying it.
I do think where these conversations go off the rails is when people start assuming they're the normal one. Everything I've read and seen about this is there really is no uniformity in how people make these things work successfully for them. That's why virtually all published diets and regimens are such failures, they're cookie cutter solutions for a very unruly species. Actually, this thread has been remarkably free of the condescending "it's simple" assertions, which is really refreshing.
I don't that you and I are really disagreeing here, just finding that we do very different things. Crossfit is something I wouldn't touch with a 20 foot pole, but I wouldn't have any reason to try to talk you out of it. I'm happy if it works for you.
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You remind me of my old workout partner in the Marines. One of those guys who was naturally lean and muscular no matter what they ate. This guy could eat Popeyes fried chicken three times a day and still look like Apollo Creed. He and I lifted the same weight, had about the same cardio, but he was just always ripped. There are freaks like that out there that blow up the whole bell curve. You are correct, there are no cookie cutter solutions. Just lots of trial and error to see what works.
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Bodybuilders who have to get bodyfat down to absurd levels think of food as simply fuel, not entertainment. I was kind of into that stuff in my younger days (but never got anywhere close to the results I expected)....a common theme from the pro guys is that mentality. You eat to fuel your body. Food is fuel. T-Nation is a pretty good forum if you are seriously into total fitness. Most of it is weightlifting and bodybuilding, but there are forums for pretty much everyone there.
But "food as fuel" is the only way I can be good when I eat. The alternative is always eating as little too much and having a 7,000 Calorie biking week and only losing one pound.
"Food as fuel" doesn't mean I don't care how my food tastes, it just means I try to ensure what I eat has some purpose other than "it's tasty and I'm hungry"
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Thinking of food simply as fuel is the only way I am able to cut back on eating. Luckily, I've otherwise been able to out exercise my bad diet.
But "food as fuel" is the only way I can be good when I eat. The alternative is always eating as little too much and having a 7,000 Calorie biking week and only losing one pound.
"Food as fuel" doesn't mean I don't care how my food tastes, it just means I try to ensure what I eat has some purpose other than "it's tasty and I'm hungry"
But "food as fuel" is the only way I can be good when I eat. The alternative is always eating as little too much and having a 7,000 Calorie biking week and only losing one pound.
"Food as fuel" doesn't mean I don't care how my food tastes, it just means I try to ensure what I eat has some purpose other than "it's tasty and I'm hungry"
That's a good point, I'm basically where I want to be weight-wise, and not losing any weight on a 7000 calorie biking week would be normal for me. Looking back on it, I've never actually used cycling to lose significant amounts of weight, I lost 50 pounds working out intensely in the gym (watching TV during cardio, btw), then I took up distance biking. While I was doing the gym routine, I was definitely eating in the manner you describe, but I would let myself have a massive "cheat day" about once a month. For me, that turned out to be a pretty good strategy for losing fat and putting on muscle, AND lowering my weight. That cheat day, btw, usually consisted of going to a buffet and eating massive amounts of meat. This is definitely a "don't try this at home" kind of strategy , I suspect there's not a lot of people this would work for, and I definitely don't think my doctor would have approved.
On the not-cheat days, I was watching calories like a hawk while I was losing weight.
TL/DR-- I need to keep in mind that my perspective on this has changed as I went from weight loss to maintenance.
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I saw some threads regarding this, but it really didn't answer my thought about calories.
I biked about 30 minutes yesterday, with higher intensity, and averaged about 15 miles per hour. Keep in mind this is in a residential\neighborhood area, and there was quite a few stops and such. The longest stretch was 1 mile long, most other streets were like quarter to half a mile, before slowing and having to make a turn
My apple watch said i burned about 430 calories, online calculators all say roughly about the same thing. My heart rate was 135avg, and 150 max
Then on the other hand when I read power meter related calorie burn from people whom have a power meter, it seems like it is much less than that.
However it seems like power meter doesn't take into account, the heart rate or your age , gender, and weight.
So, how much calories do you think i really burned?
Also, is factors like gender, heart rate, and age not taken into account?
I biked about 30 minutes yesterday, with higher intensity, and averaged about 15 miles per hour. Keep in mind this is in a residential\neighborhood area, and there was quite a few stops and such. The longest stretch was 1 mile long, most other streets were like quarter to half a mile, before slowing and having to make a turn
My apple watch said i burned about 430 calories, online calculators all say roughly about the same thing. My heart rate was 135avg, and 150 max
Then on the other hand when I read power meter related calorie burn from people whom have a power meter, it seems like it is much less than that.
However it seems like power meter doesn't take into account, the heart rate or your age , gender, and weight.
So, how much calories do you think i really burned?
Also, is factors like gender, heart rate, and age not taken into account?