Rob_E

I am still getting used to my disc brakes. I find them a little fiddly, and still have trouble getting them centered properly at times. They do stop well, and consistently in any weather, unlike the rim brakes. Still, rim brakes do the job fine, and you quickly figure out when the weather merits longer stopping distances.

But, when I had rim brakes on my commuter/tourer, which I rode daily in any kind of weather, I ended up wearing through a rim. Maybe 5 years is a good life span for a rim (I feel like that's about how old it was), but hub that came out of that rim went right into another wheel, so it wasn't done yet, just the rim. Now that I have disc brakes, I expect a much longer life out of wheels.

DropBarFan

Had cantis on a loaded mountain tour thru heavy mist/fog & they were dangerously bad: high effort which is esp uncomfortable in chilly temps & sometimes they'd barely slow the bike down, actually had to use a truck run-off ramp once. I reckon fog can be worse than rain: rim pads scrub away rain water but in fog the rim stays damp even while braking.

Sometimes a longer stopping distance means a trip to the hospital. IMHO why pay good $$ for a touring bike & then scrimp on the #1 safety factor, brakes?

rperkins146 has a couple bikes so waiting for Disc Trucker doesn't mean missing spring riding weather.

rperkins146

[QUOTE= IMHO why pay good $$ for a touring bike & then scrimp on the #1 safety factor, brakes?

.[/QUOTE]



This, this is really where I'm at. A decision will be made today one way or another. The trek deal incentive ends this week, so no $100 in bonty accessories after this week. I emailed Surly about may 8th and their reply was


"This bike shipped to our distributor, QBP, the week of March27th. We have about a 5-6 week lead time once it ships, so yes, May8th is looking pretty good for a target in-stock date."


I absolutely hate the idea of waiting another 5-6 weeks, so it is a real decision. IMO the Surly has better rear derailleur, rear cogs (10 spd), and tires. but the trek has better brakes, and package for the $$.

Mr IGH

IMO, the component differences are a wash, neither kit has parts that need to be replaced. Looking at the geometries, both have ~72* head tube angle, the Trek has more fork offset/rake so it'll handle a little quicker. LHT also has lower bb drop and longer chainstays, adding to more sluggish handling compared to the Trek. The geometry differences are subtle, many riders will not notice or care.

IMO, the real difference is sloping vs horizontal top tube and head tube length. I didn't get a Surly LHT Disc because I wanted a long head tube and sloping top tube. I went with the Soma Saga Disc (now the Soma Saga DC) for the higher stack and sloping TT, I would have bought a Vaya but there weren't any framesets. I'm an old fart and I hate having 100mm of spacers, I have enough Fred in me as it is.

treebound 

Just a note to mention that the Wheel&Sprocket bike expo is going on today and this weekend, and rumor has it that they have a couple 520's at the show (per a co-worker here). Not sure if they are disc or not, nor what their sizes are, but might be worth a telephone call to check if today is your decision day. But checking maps, it looks like you are about 260 miles away from the sales expo so that option may be moot.

I hope you find something that will work out well for you.

Rob_E

I don't know of any evidence that discs are 100% safer than rim brakes. I prefer disc brakes, but I don't hold with the idea that rim brakes are unsafe. Know the limitations of your equipment and plan/react accordingly. I've ridden bikes with fairly weak coaster brakes, and I managed to stay alive on those, too. Rim brakes are standard on a lot of styles of bikes, and it's only fairly recently that I started seeing touring bikes made with disc brakes. I like them. I use them. But I don't feel like I'm risking my life when I ride a bike with rim brakes, given that rim brakes have been the standard most of my adult life.

rperkins146

I finally decided. I honestly felt I would be happy with either a LHT or a 520, but I went with the Trek 520. $1359 with $100 of bontrager goodies of my choice. Should be here in 3 days. I look forward to gearing it up and doing a short test tour. I will post some pics after it is built up.


Thank you all for your input

Squeezebox

Check out the node 2.1 Being an old guy I appreciate having a heart rate monitor on the bicycle computer. I've been meaning to test ride a 520 just to see what it's like.

DropBarFan

I find it interesting that there are almost no available scientific studies of rim vs disc brakes. IMHO bike/component makers know that discs work better in the rain but are reluctant to do formal on-the-record studies because of legal liability. Rode rim brakes for 43 years & never liked 'em in the rain. Rural or urban, one can get instantly cut off by a motorist.

saddlesores

doesn't make sense. auto and tire manufacturers do studies alla time
on stopping power of brakes or tires.

maybe they "know" discs are better, just not that much better?

tyrion

"Better" but maybe not safer. A theory:

And experienced rider will acclimate to the brakes' performance (e.g. brake earlier with weaker brakes), and an inexperienced rider will be equally unsafe with any kind of brakes. So in practice more responsive brakes aren't safer but are faster (allow one to brake later).

Just a theory.

Siu Blue Wind

Just remember to do thorough research using all avenues before any decisions are made and remember that safety is first. What may not be good for one person may be the best for another. It does take time to get used to.

manapua_man

Of course you can get by just fine with em, but there's still a reason why mountain bikers have basically totally abandoned rim brakes for kind of a while now. It's just that with most of us riding in tame and fairly clean conditions the advantages don't stick out nearly as much.

One reason for me loving discs is that I have to ride through a lot of mud to get to the road (from my home) when it rains, and I can't stand having to scrape crud off my bike just to get the wheels to spin or brakes to work whenever the weather is bad. The bikes I have with rim brakes only really get out when the weather is nice these days. I sold off my older CX bikes for that reason.

If you can get a bike with through axles that isn't as much of a problem. It can be a pain when you have QR hubs sometimes.

gregjones

Before I owned a disc bike I thought this disc vs. rim was a moot point. They both stop.

Six months into my first disc bike, for me, the argument is settled.

Disc for the win!!

DropBarFan

Cars/trucks different than bikes: drum vs disc rather than rim vs disc. Plus car/truck brakes are power/hydro.

saddlesores

still doesn't make sense.
from a liability standpoint, they absolutely need to test their products.
too much stopping power = lawsuits
too little stopping power = lawsuits
just the right amount of stopping power = lawsuits

so we know the tests have been done.
the point is, why not publicize the results?
i would suggest the tested performance increase was measurable, but underwhelming.

alternatively....your honor, on the basis of this company's test results, my client............

BigAura

An experienced & skilled rider is the most important part of the bicycle's braking system. All properly-setup brake types, on the market today, can safely stop a bicycle. But disc-brakes DO have the most stopping power in the largest number of conditions. Who don't know that?

Squeezebox

Does anyone have an accurate wt difference for disc vs caliper. Including the braze-on mounts, fork reinforcement. Like maybe the 520 disc vs caliper wts. Just curious.

Mr IGH

For loaded touring frames it's not much, the tubing is already heavy for carrying loads. There's little difference in weight between LHT and Disc Trucker frameset. Soma Saga DC takes both disc and canti/v so no difference there. In general, there's no significant weight penalty for the frames, on lighter road bikes there's a ~300gm addition for steel disc forks vs standard caliper fork. There are carbon fiber disc forks in the 400gm range for weight-weenies with $$.

gregjones

Once the tire skids, no matter the road surface or weather condition, braking power is a moot point---the rider is nothing more than a passenger along for the ride.

Improved braking comes from the how the braking power is controlled/modulated. Bike riders have to learn to apply it on their own. Drivers of modern cars have the computer covering up for their typical non-driving skills.

DropBarFan

I suppose you're basically right; perhaps the simplest reason why companies don't release info is that they feel no special purpose to give out proprietary info for free?

DropBarFan

True enough...I find disc brakes easier to modulate esp in med-heavy braking...also I never liked how hard braking would cause canti brake levers to get uncomfortably close to the handlebar. ABS car brakes are one of the few modern features I like even though it's quite rare for me to require them. BTW I read that one can buy ABS rim brake shoes now:

SABS Products

seeker333

The Surly Disc Trucker (DT) is heavier than the Long Haul Trucker (LHT), whether you're considering the frame, fork, frameset or complete bike built from same components.

From 2011 Surly catalog, page 6:

for 58cm LHT frame, weight = 2,340g ; for 700c fork with 300mm steerer, weight = 1,020g

total = 3360g for a 58cm LHT frameset

These figures were published for years, possibly from the first LHT back in ~2004. The earliest page I can locate with the "Wayback Machine" is from 9.27.2009 (click on frame highlights tab, then look near bottom of page). Surly appears to have stopped publishing this info after 2011 on both LHT web page and annual catalog.

Surly also published the weight of the DT frame and fork when it debuted in 2012: weight for a 58cm frameset and 700c fork with 300mm steerer:

for 58cm DT frame, weight = 2,580g ; for 700c fork with 300mm steerer, weight = 1,130g

total = 3710g for a 58cm DT frameset

According to Surly, a 58cm DT frameset weighs 350g (10%) more than a LHT frameset. Note both frame and fork of the DT are heavier than those of the LHT.

I own a 56cm 2012 DT, which I weighed when it was new, before building into a complete bike. The frame weighed 2,474g and the 700c fork with 300mm steerer weighed 1,186g, for a total frameset weight of 3,660g. This corroborates Surly's published weight of 3,710g for a 58cm DT frameset.

LHTs are equipped with Tektro CR720 cantilever brakesets weighing ~160g each. DTs are equipped with Avid BB7 disc brakesets weighing ~335g each. The DT requires an additional ~90 cm of brake cable and ~140 cm of housing over a LHT, which adds another 70g weight. So that's 2*(335-160)+70=420g extra weight for a DT for the brakes and cables.

Frameset weight difference (350g) plus brake weight difference (420g) means a 58cm DT will weigh 770g / 1.7lbs more than a LHT built with all the same parts, excepting brakesets, cables and housing.

This largely explains why my old LHT weighed ~28 lbs, and my DT built from the same components (excluding brakes, tires, wheels and fenders) weighed ~30 lbs.

Back to the original topic. IMO, rim brakes of the LHT are adequate if you ride on pavement in mostly dry conditions. Rain and mud conditions, and/or use as a commuter in traffic probably justifies the ~2 lb weight increase for disc brakes. Another option is to convert the front only of a rim-braked bike to disc brake, which would yield most of the braking of an all-disc-brake bike with only half the weight penalty (a DT fork is perfectly compatible with a LHT frame).

Mr IGH

Silly me, I wasn't looking at archived catalogs, I was using the info on their website today. Surly does update their designs over time to address warrenty issues, quoting weights from 7 years isn't the best practice. A quick check of the Surley website shows the forks are the exact same weight:

from: Forks | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes
700c = 2.3 lb (1.0kg) (rim brake version) uncut

from: Forks | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes
700c = 2.3 lb uncut

They don't publish the LHT weight, the DT weight is listed at "42cm = 4.98 lb (2.25kg)" which is right in line with the archived LHT weight you're claiming.

Disc Trucker | Bikes | Surly Bikes

phughes

Sounds like a simple adjustment issue to me. Mine do not get uncomfortably close to the handlebar under heavy braking. I am not making an argument for rim brakes over disc her, just a comment on your stated issue with cantis. Mine don't even come close to the bars under heavy braking.