Booger1

If your going to live on fruit,you better bring a good supply of corks......

There are lots of veggies to eat along side the road,IF...A BIG IF....you know what to look for.It's not something you learn from a book.You would have saved tons more time shopping..... if you eat the wrong thing once.

Picking berries along side the road is one thing,living off of what you find is another.

Burton

Maybe there's some notion that because everything that grows in the wild is chemical free its also disease free. Not exactly the case and bacteria, parasites and molds are a reality. Wild animals are also not disease free either - a side effect of living in a non-sterile environment. 'Natural' may have an idealistic attraction, but the reality is usually a lot less pretty.

https://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documen...fetymanual.pdf

But bears tend to eat whats most easily available - they might appreciate a break from berries - wear something not too hard to chew.

ak08820

Dr. Fuhrman makes a strong case for eating mainly raw and if possible vegetarian diet.
https://www.drfuhrman.com
He appears on PBS fund drives. According to him, heart disease, etc., have been reversed by his diet plan.
To me, he is more credible than any other diet guru out there.

Carbonfiberboy 

Another amazing BF thread. I suppose most of us have no window into aboriginal culture. Those people were wonderfully intelligent, resourceful, hard-working, had methods and food sources passed down to them through many generations, spent most of their time finding food, still frequently starved to death, and an old person was 45. Now we romanticize the heck out of it. What do NW natives eat now? Fry bread. Delicious, BTW. Of course they still supplement with wild berries, etc., just like we do. We pick in season and can. Season is pretty short. I'm not carrying canned berries with me.

How did the Clovis people expand through the territory so quickly? They killed whatever they could and ate it. Law enforcement looks on that quite poorly today. They still only expanded at a rate of about 5 miles/year. 30 bananas a day. Courtesy your fossil fuel culture, United Fruit, and the US Army. I don't think the people whose bananas they were would like you foraging in their plantations. And then there's the whole question of where those plantations came from. That's some pretty concentrated food right there.

We own some land that was homesteaded by a couple who walked over the mountains to it. They planted potatoes. The first winter, the husband ate the potatoes and his wife drank the water they were cooked in.

None of this sounds like bike touring to me. The juxtaposition of the high-tech, whole world culture bicycle and equipment, and the expectation of living off wild berries . . .

Niles H.

I've noticed that seemingly incongruous juxtaposition too.

Recently I've been moving toward embracing it, rather than making it an either-or.

Both cuben fiber and primitive living.

Both high-tech and back to nature.

I'll be touring this year eating mainly wild foods, but carrying some lightweight high-tech gear.

I favor natural fibers for some applications, cuben or silnylon for others.

I'll be using both, and eating like an Indian. (Probably out of a cuben or microwavable polypropylene container at times.)

More like a bear, actually.

Pre-stoneage.

Watching the stars and living outside.

Goes way back.

Niles H.

If you were on a tour, and came across a large bonanza of blackberries (or some other wild berry) at lunchtime, and decided to make them your meal, and figured you needed about a thousand calories from the blackberries, how would you know how many to eat?

In the past, when I have done this on occasion (not for successive meals, but for isolated or occasional meals), I've just eaten my fill and called it good.

But if one is depending on getting enough calories this way, and doing it repeatedly, as a main source of calories for a long tour, it becomes much more important to get enough calories from the berries, and to get it right.

So, what would be your best estimate? How many would you have to eat to take care of that thousand-calorie meal?

Erick L

About 4 liters for 1000 calories. That was my point in my first reply. If you want to tour eating wild berries, you won't be doing much cycling.

Niles H.

I'm not sure exactly how irrational fears (of a high-fruit diet in this case) and myths get dissolved, but for me it has been a process of listening to certain people, seeing the evidence, cross-checking it, and reflecting on it. And testing it for myself.

Some of the high-carb, predominantly-fruit diet proponents present great evidence. I just don't see that sort of evidence coming from the other side. The former have the blood tests. They have their own blood monitoring equipment. They cite the scientific studies. They test it out for themselves. The other side just repeats a lot of fears and myths, for the most part.

Here is Patenaude addressing some of the myths:

https://www.fredericpatenaude.com/blog/?p=173

https://www.fredericpatenaude.com/blog/?p=175

Niles H.

At about 62 calories per cup, yes about 4 liters.

This leads to a very interesting juncture.

In the past, I would have said 'impossible' and turned away from the idea.

The change has come from seeing a new possibility, and seeing it clearly demonstrated and lived.

According to those who have tried to help others make the transition to this sort of diet, and who have seen a lot of people attempt it, and fail or stumble (as well as others who have succeeded), say that the number one source of failure on this kind of diet is simply not getting enough calories.

It's hard to believe that anyone could down ten bananas at one sitting. It seems like some Guinness Book stunt. But these guys do it all the time,

(there's a discussion of a long bike tour starting at about 04:58),


She doesn't strike me as being entirely unhealthy -- "unhealthy" would not be among the first words that come to mind.

Niles H.

This one speaks right to the point, and shows how difficult it is for a cyclist to down ten bananas,

Dahon.Steve

What they fail to mention is the cost of these expensive diets. If your going to walk out with a shopping cart full of fruit, expect to pay about $400 - $500 dollars a week for a family of 3 people. There's nothing wrong with this and it unfortunate produce can't be less expensive. However, the average american family cannot dedicate that much income on fruits each month.

Spending 1K a week for 2 people on food is an insane amount of money! That's just for bananas! Can you imagine if he added apples, strawberrys and oranges to this diet?? Oh! I almost forgot, notice how these strategies tend to be from kids in their 20's?? When I was that age, my diet consisted of nothing but junk food and I was rail thin!! Show me someone in their 60's on this diet and then I might start believing.

Burton

How would you feel about having to eat 15 or 16 cups of ANY berry to get 1,000 calories? Raw unsweetened berries aren't all that calorie laiden, but that much of any fruit will keep you on the continuous lookout for a bathroom.

Losligato

I love the zero-point aspect of your plan. I can't imagine a better way to encourage others to go looking in the woods for edibles than to SHOW them that it can be done while fueling a bike tour. I'll be watching.

Burton

OK so since we're talking about bike touring, here's how a few of the most common touring staples that require no refrigeration compare to berries on a calorie intake basis per hundred grams. Haven't tried to be complete, just thought a few examples might be a good hint.


Strawberries (and most other berries)
28 calories / 100 grams

Fruit Juices (unsweetened)
45 to 61 calories / 100 grams

-------------------------------------------------


Cheese
500 calories / 100 grams

Almonds
575 calories / 100 grams

Dark chocolate
525 calories / 100 grams

Peanut butter
590 calories / 100 g

Sesame Butter (Tahini)
595 calories / 100 gram

Whole Wheat Crackers
443 calories / 100 gram

Raisins
299 calories / 100 gram

Dates
282 calories / 100 gram

Whole Wheat Bread
266 calories / 100 gram

Dried Apricots
241 calories / 100 gram

Coconut Milk
230 calories / 100 gram

Avocados
160 calories / 100 gram

Brown Rice (Cooked)
111 calories / 100 gram

Oatmeal / Oats (Cooked)
71 calories / 100 gram

Knorr Swiss soups
385 calories / 100 grams


and meal replacements as a reference

Nutribar meal replacement bars
400 calories / 100 grams

Nutribar shake
378 calories / 100 grams

The message I'm trying to get across is that you're going to have to dig up huge quantities of fruit and berries to relace a few things that could be easily carried with you.

Losligato

That's true, but it is tantamount to suggesting that someone should only walk up the hills in their immediate neighborhood because they'd have to endure high altitude if they wanted to climb Everest.

Doing a hard thing is interesting because it is hard. Maybe he'll succeed. Maybe not. But he'll learn a heck of a lot in the trying.

Burton

Agreed.

What I'm finding surprising is no mention of water management.
About 7 lbs of food will do me a week, I don't have to carry it all at once, and can actually do several day without eating without issue if necessary.
Water is another story. For drinking purposes ONLY I'd plan on 4 bottles a day or 28 refills a week and thats about 40 pounds of liquid to manage. Again, it doesn't have to be carried all at once, but going two days without water is very different from going two days without food. Personally I find mater management a much bigger challenge than food management, even when carrying a water filter.

spinner

While I don't doubt that it is possible to live and thrive on a diet of raw fruits and berries, the sheer volume of fruit needed is daunting, particularily if you are foraging , gathering from wild sources. From the post above, it would require appprox. 4 kilograms of berries to make up 2280 calories. That's approx. 8.8 lbs of berries just to meet your basic caloric requirements for the day, never mind what you burn riding your bike. I'm sure it is possible, but it probably wouldn't be easy. A different time of year and a harsher environment to be sure, but it didn't work out so well for Chris McCandless

lhendrick

Next Weeks Topic: Cannibalism!

Niles H.

Yes, drinking water is part of it.

One approach is accelerated SODIS. Techniques like oxygenating the water (which provides free radicals and peroxides in the sun) coupled with solar heating and solar pasteurization when possible....

Touring in areas where water isn't scarce. Blackberries thrive in such areas.

Drinking from natural sources that provide natural, ready to go, zero wait time SODIS.

Using some of the lighter and more agreeable drops or tabs.

Using small twig fires where appropriate.

Using one of the newer, lighter filters. Intensangler uses one that looks pretty good.

Educating oneself further about finding and using natural sources that are safe to drink.

Combining these appoaches, using them adaptively.

alan s 

Wild blackberries have thorns. Make sure you have suitable clothing. Lycra probably would be a thorn magnet. Also, a good supply of TP.

fietsbob

right.. Zero .. pointless.

Niles H.

I've been experimenting with this diet, and it definitely involves a recalbration of food quantity assumptions, standards, and habits.

You push right past old limits and boundaries.

Considerably.

Even astonishingly.

A key element in this touring approach is to tour in areas where the food is abundant or very abundant. Otherwise it isn't going to work.

McAndless didn't factor this aspect in very well at all. Also, he doesn't seem to have taken the important step of doing the sorts of clear caloric calculations that give you an accurate sense of quantities needed. (The four-liters-of-berries calculations for example.)

Many wild food hobbyists or dabblers or newcomers are just doing 'wild foods lite.' They aren't doing it as their sole food intake, and they aren't doing it for extended periods. When you do it for a short time, you can get away with the caloric deficits, even serious caloric deficits. You could eat two-hundred calorie meals now and then, for example -- or even do it for a few days -- and be just fine. Many people could even lose a few pounds and be better off for it. They can get away with the deficits.

Which can be misleading, because to make it work in the longer run you really have to take the eating to new levels.

Without living proof and examples, the quantities needed seem virtually impossible to many people.

Even with the proof and examples.

And it feels very much like a classic firsthand encounter with a paradigm shift, or even a set of paradigm shifts.

Losligato

My wife had a psychological problem with regard to berries on our West Coast tour. If she could see them, she could not resist the temptation to acquire them.



Post acquisition berry picking legs.

Niles H.

Most people who actually give these sorts of diets a try report positive experiences and improvements in the area of regularity. It might be a bit more often (maybe two or three times a day) but not involving the runs or anything unpleasant.

And almost all report a vastly different and improved odor something like mildly composted fruit.

The food isn't stored as long, and that's basicaly what it is -- mildly composted fruit.

Burton

One of the reasons man has survived and florished is adaptability. Part of which is the ability to live of a wide variety of different food sources and go for short periods of time on fat reserves. However, naturally occuring food sources tend to be varied and seasonal, even though different food sources have different seasons.

So being intelligent and imaginative, people all over the world found ways to preserve and store foods so that feast or famine weren't the only two options. But that wasn't enough. Taste is as important to some people as nutrition and so as well as pastas and flours, pickled and preserved fruits and vegetables, smoked and salted meats and a staggering selection of frozed foods - there are amazing recipies and exotic spices from all over the world available as close as the corner store. As well as a ridiculous choice of fresh produce.

Eating healty is one thing - throwing all that away to go back to living off wild berries would be an awful hard sell to me. I'm very much an opportunist and if anything is easily available along the way - brook trout or blueberries - I'm in. But not a chance I'm turning my back on other choices that might be more convenient. It would be very possibe to spend all your time foraging and have no time left over for bike touring - at which point its no longer a bike tour - just a survival exercise.