downtube

Thanks for the positive note! FYI I think someone is looking out for me. I have not lived in PA in about 13 years, and met my former student from Temple University at the courthouse. He worked there, what are the odds of that happening? I still have stress, but I know this will work out well for everyone.

Might you know how Tern was created? The lawsuit with Dahon??? I feel so bad for Dr. Hon, he must be the saddest soul on the planet. I was in shock when I read the Dahon v Tern complaint. I think it will be hard to find now, I did a few searches and nothing came up.


Thanks,
Yan

badrad

I think this was what I saw back then.
Dahon v Tern: it's now a lawsuit | Bicycle Business | BikeBiz

BikeLite

Wonder how Tern was turned onto your bike in the first place to look into the matter. Someone with a vested interest in Tern?

downtube

Did you read the complaint? While reading, I became sick to my stomach. I felt the same way while reading the Tern forums in the midst of the frame failure debacle.

Thanks,
Yan

downtube

In the complaint they state that Downtube was" formed with capitalization totally inadequate for the business in which said entities are engaged."

I am still not sure if they were talking about us or themselves I consider our capitalization position excellent, which near 100% growth for multiples years. Look at our 8H ( $899 ) which we introduced two years before they had an 8sp belt drive bike. It has better features than the Verge S8i which retails for $2100. Additionally we introduced a better 11sp Alfine belt drive model in 2016 for $1300. In short we have better bikes, we are earlier to market, and our prices are less than half their competing models. I am not surprised they complained, however I am shocked by the utter non-sense contained in the legal documents.

I am ramping up the launch of our STI Speed 451mm. I hope to get them in early 2018. I would be curious to see how they compete.

Thanks,
Yan

badrad

Plays out a bit like Macbeth without the carnage...

tds101 

Keep on fighting the good fight Yan. An honest person is always fighting for what's right.

wesgreen

If you have the money Tern has it's probably tempting to harass the competition like this. Eventually some will give up, and the field will thin out. But they also seem to have figured out how to ensure their dealers' loyalty.

Ludkeh

I bought an 8H, this past spring for my wife.We use it when we're camping. She loves it! A lot of bike for the money. I can see why the competition is nervous.

mlau

This sort of ensures that I won't be buying a Tern for my next folding bike.

Keep on going, Yan!

towndock

You're in the right on this Yan, I'm so sorry you have to deal with such a dumb distraction. Thumbs up for you and your bikes from the NC coast.

Sangetsu

Thanks for letting us know about this. I was recently looking at a Tern, but I'll certainly not buy one now. I absolutely hate companies which perpetrate this nonsense.

downtube

I wanted to thank everyone once again for the support.

FYI the case has officially been dismissed. I think this experience will benefit me long term, but I must admit it was traumatic to get served legal papers that claim I run shell companies, and I'm a fraud. Additionally, they filed the case as a patent case to limit the number of attorney's that could assist. Honestly I think there are zero patent attorney's in Greensboro, NC ( though I am not certain ). I took it on Pro Se and it worked.

If anyone feels they are a victim of a frivolous case let me know.

Thanks,
Yan

downtube

Get a Dahon, they are an honest company!

Thanks,
Yan

tcs

The 'Brompton Bicycle' relates that a some point before Bromptons inked their partnership with Neobike International, Dr. Hon contacted the Brompton office and suggested they not do business with the principals of the newly formed Neobike. For whatever reasons they did not take his advice...and the rest is history.

Bonzo Banana

When you watch the Tern boss on youtube being interviewed he does a very convincing job of being a good guy. I'm not saying he is of course but its a good performance.


The Downtube direct selling approach clearly has huge cost advantages and perhaps many dealers had complained that they cannot compete on price and Tern sales were low. Not a criticism I'm all for direct selling if it saves money for me but you are cutting out wholesalers/distributors and local bike shops from their slice of the pie who may not be happy about it. However maybe Tern felt they could get away with some commercial bullying. Commercial bullying is fairly common and an indicator of a very aggressive company which is at odds with the interview above. Making business uncomfortable for your competitor and making it so they think twice about producing a similar product because of fear of legal action is what it is about normally. It's a statement that you are being watched and they don't like you basically and they will try to make your life awkward. It's about creating clear space in the marketplace for their product and making other options less obvious.

I've read this thread and still don't have a clue of the basis for the legal case. I don't feel particularly comfortable with Dahon either as a company I think both are quite aggressive with quite a lot of manipulation in their marketing and excessive pricing for what often is only average or even low quality bikes. Dahon also seem to claim a lot of dubious intellectual property rights on bike designs which everyone seems to ignore and carry on regardless. Seems like a similar approach at both companies. I keep reading comments that say this or that bike is made by Dahon when it's branded differently even when the bike doesn't even come from the same country and the frame really only looks slightly similar. It's like some people have been convinced that Dahon own most IP rights related to folding bikes and no one else can make them without asking Dahon first.

It's often difficult to see what is premium about them to merit the prices especially the low end models with freewheels and basic components yet 2-3x the price of competing bikes of the same spec which sometimes actually seem better quality. I saw some Dahon bikes in a dealer sometime ago, one had good welds but the other looked quite messy in the same location for a small area and all the cheaper bikes seemed to have more consistent welds. This was the lower end Dahon models which were still expensive. I don't know if the frames were made by Dahon or bought in for their lower ranges but I was not impressed to say the least. I also know of someone who bought a Dahon but sold it on because it was such low quality and kept a very cheap folding bike in preference which he preferred which was better quality. He had issues with the seat post not staying in position because of poor manufacturing tolerances and a hinge issue.

I'm old enough to realise buying by brand is often a big mistake it should always be about the actual product. Even the best of brands produce both terrible and high quality products and with so much outsourcing nowadays it can be real lottery buying by brand especially if you are trying to buy a good brand at a low price which are often horribly compromised products.

mconlonx

As an occasional worker (former FT/PT employee) of an LBS, I can tell you honestly that we love direct sales bikes. We don't have to stock them, we don't have to sell them, we don't have to honor warranty work, we don't have to honor free tunes or follow-up adjustments on new bike sales. They don't clog our sales floor, they don't represent unsold inventory.

We are happy to assemble them for customers and charge them for this service, which is free with purchase of a new bike through most stores. We are more than happy to do any tune-ups or service of any nature, knowing that we can charge regular pricing for such services. And inevitably, they will shop the store for whatever accessories or impulse buys they don't make online.

Most shops lose money or barely break even on new bike sales; accessory sales is where it's at; and service is best. Direct sales bikes engage the money-making centers in a bike shop, rather than the break-even or loss profit center that is new bikes sales.

I'm glad Yan posted this here. In case I'm ever in the market for another folder, I'll pass on Tern.

Bonzo Banana

Can that be said of most LBS's though. I thought in the US as well as Europe a huge number of local bike shops have closed due to online sales. Certainly some may get their online purchase maintained by their local bike shop but many will probably buy maintenance parts online and service themselves.

It sort of defeats the purpose of buying an online bike if you don't do the maintenance yourself in a way. Charges from local bike shops will soon add up. I don't think I've ever had any work done by a local bike shop. I did buy a Carrera Subway 8 a Nexus 8 speed bike online from Halfords which was then sent to my local Halfords for assembly and I got a free 6 week service out of it which is their policy. Fantastic deal and bike but that is the only work I've actually had done by a local bike shop. My actual independent local bike shop charges full whack for bikes and maintenance and I have better uses for that money.

mconlonx

The online sales which cause bike shops to close is accessories and parts. Not bikes. At least in the US, the number of people who maintain their own bikes, and are willing to learn to do so, is thankfully small.

Bold points are spot-on, and the last sentence there is exactly why we don't mind direct sales models. Again, most people don't do their own maintenance, and when they find out that getting their direct sales bike running properly is more than just a matter of "some assembly required," they will usually turn to a local shop to do a correct assembly or at least a tune after their attempts to get the bike up and running.

It doesn't take much to correctly assemble and tune a bike out of a box direct from the manufacturer, but you'd be surprised how few people are willing to take the time to do it or learn. Most people who are really into bikes are stunned to learn that a bread and butter repair is actually just fixing flats...

downtube

The lead attorney representing Tern has closed his office. Phone #'s are disconnected and the website is down https://www.ksrh.com/ .

I found this tidbit amusing.

Thanks,
Yan

BikeLite

they messed with the wrong cyclist.

downtube

I have no idea if I had anything to do with that. However, they lied in their complaint, and I gave notice that I would notify the California BAR.

I'm curious....

Thanks,
Yan

HGR3inOK

For background see:

https://www.law.com/therecorder/almI...20171112172001

-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA

downtube

Hank,

Thanks for the article. FYI there is some interesting information from my case.

According to the complaint, the firm sent a warning letter via FedEx to my UPS Box is Agora Hills, Ca. However I have never been to Agora Hills, Ca. Nor have I ever had an address in Ca. Making such claims in a federal case is problematic for the attorney on record. The attorney told me his client provided this "address". After which I wrote the below:

"Ken,

There are a few problems.....I have never set foot in Agora Hills, Ca nor do I have an address in California. It seems your client created a fake address for me. Additionally you signed the complaint claiming I was notified of a warning, which is untrue. Additionally your complaint lists addresses that are up to 25 years old ( in Pa ) none of which are valid."

I planned on filling a complaint with the BAR before I left for my yearly teaching assignment. However I just finished the paperwork yesterday. The BAR notified me of the firm change.

I believe the tactics used by the firm we're questionable ( at best ) . I'm curious if this will go anywhere.

Thanks
Yan

FolderBeholder

In my experience FedEx wont deliver to a PO Box, let alone delivering a legal warning, from a legitimate law firm typically requiring “proof of service”. That claim that they did just that in your case tells me they are (were) a low budget counsel, attempting to throw something on some wall, hoping it would stick ( Better Call Saul?). Or at least a cheesy scare tactic aimed at influencing you to C&D without due process.
Glad you prevailed.

Having spent 4+ years defending myself in a businesss-related suit of my own, with the plaintiff’s attorney being a bumbling, stumbling-but-persistent doofus, I am sensitive to these petty games, or outright and unexcusable missteps in their process. In my case, we countered for attorney’s costs (4+ years worth....do the math) and won them back.

I still keep a copy of the reimbursement check for those massive legal fees.

The plaintiff (my former employer of 16 years) ended up suing their former attorney, and also won a judgement against him for his misconduct during our skirmish, which ultimately took center stage in having the case go in my favor.