Eight speed downtube alternatives
03-06-23, 11:35 PM
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Eight speed downtube alternatives
I have three bikes with nicely working 8 speed indexing on Shimano cassettes that shouldn't work, but are great.
1. Years ago I got a Mavic index derailleur but couldn't find a matching shift lever set. Thinking it was some sort of Shimano shift actuation, I found a set of Sachs Aris 8 speed levers to try. What I didn't know at that time was that Sachs had gone from Shimano geometry to Campy 8 geometry when they went from 6/7 to 8 speed. This turned out to be a good thing.
Since the shift lever had a larger diameter barrel pulling more cable than I needed per shift, I reduced the diameter of the shifter until it made the Mavic derailleur index perfectly on a Shimano 8 speed cassette. This sounds technical, but what I actually did was, starting in 7th cog, was to downshift, unhook the cable, use a needle file on the slot where the cable touched, and retry the shift. When it stopped shifting too far, I went on to the next shift down, repeating the process. This took less than an hour.
Sachs 8 speed shifters are still available new - sometimes for cheap. The Rival model I bought has the nicest index feel of any lever I've tried. Unless you have really short throw derailleurs, this technique works really well and allowed the 4.8mm spaced cassette to work well with shifters and derailleur intended for wider.
2. Simple and dumb. I bought a Suntour Superbe 6/7 speed index lever set. These have a ring you can move to select index 6, 7 or ratchet friction. Since it has two scales, it has more than just seven click locations - it appears to just keep clicking all the way around. Anyway, I mounted it to a compatible Suntour Sprint index derailleur and it shift a Shimano 8 cassette perfectly. Only a few Suntour shifters worked like this with extra clicks. Any Suntour derailleur with a barrel adjuster should index well. Yes, Suntour was 5.0 spaced, but it is fine.
3. Really dumb. Shimano 7 speed shifters will shift 8 decently if you tune the indexing from the center of the cassette. First gear has no discernable click, but the friction is sufficient to hold the position. Shimano 7 is also 5.0, and you can tell it is a little off, but the floating pulley makes up for it. 7 speed downtube shifters are plentiful. If you want to tune it better, add velum spacers between the cogs to get closer to 5.0mm.
4. Super fancy. The original Athena/Xenon derailleur was the best Syncro derailleur Campagnolo made. It was only offered with 6 or 7 speed inserts. After comparing photos of different inserts, I noted that the red insert for Chorus narrow range six speed had the clicks closer together than the Athena blue insert. So I bought one, make a pattern by mounting the lever on friction over a piece of cardboard to try the shifting on a Shimano 8 speed cassette, and then transferred the pattern to the red Chorus insert to add two more clicks. I was careful and it worked on the first try - I now have a 1989 Campy Syncro bike that shifts perfectly on Shimano 8 speed cassettes.
My experience using Mavic friction derailleurs on HG cassettes suggests that all sorts of derailleurs will index decently if they have HG cogs to help. Athena used the same insert that worked for C-Record, Super Record and Victory, which means it has the same shift geometry going all the way back to Nuovo Record. So one of these days I'm going to put my old Gran Sport derailleur on this bike and see how it shifts on HG 8.
I like index downtube shifting. Clearly. But 8 speed keeps these old parts going on newer wheels and common cassettes.
1. Years ago I got a Mavic index derailleur but couldn't find a matching shift lever set. Thinking it was some sort of Shimano shift actuation, I found a set of Sachs Aris 8 speed levers to try. What I didn't know at that time was that Sachs had gone from Shimano geometry to Campy 8 geometry when they went from 6/7 to 8 speed. This turned out to be a good thing.
Since the shift lever had a larger diameter barrel pulling more cable than I needed per shift, I reduced the diameter of the shifter until it made the Mavic derailleur index perfectly on a Shimano 8 speed cassette. This sounds technical, but what I actually did was, starting in 7th cog, was to downshift, unhook the cable, use a needle file on the slot where the cable touched, and retry the shift. When it stopped shifting too far, I went on to the next shift down, repeating the process. This took less than an hour.
Sachs 8 speed shifters are still available new - sometimes for cheap. The Rival model I bought has the nicest index feel of any lever I've tried. Unless you have really short throw derailleurs, this technique works really well and allowed the 4.8mm spaced cassette to work well with shifters and derailleur intended for wider.
2. Simple and dumb. I bought a Suntour Superbe 6/7 speed index lever set. These have a ring you can move to select index 6, 7 or ratchet friction. Since it has two scales, it has more than just seven click locations - it appears to just keep clicking all the way around. Anyway, I mounted it to a compatible Suntour Sprint index derailleur and it shift a Shimano 8 cassette perfectly. Only a few Suntour shifters worked like this with extra clicks. Any Suntour derailleur with a barrel adjuster should index well. Yes, Suntour was 5.0 spaced, but it is fine.
3. Really dumb. Shimano 7 speed shifters will shift 8 decently if you tune the indexing from the center of the cassette. First gear has no discernable click, but the friction is sufficient to hold the position. Shimano 7 is also 5.0, and you can tell it is a little off, but the floating pulley makes up for it. 7 speed downtube shifters are plentiful. If you want to tune it better, add velum spacers between the cogs to get closer to 5.0mm.
4. Super fancy. The original Athena/Xenon derailleur was the best Syncro derailleur Campagnolo made. It was only offered with 6 or 7 speed inserts. After comparing photos of different inserts, I noted that the red insert for Chorus narrow range six speed had the clicks closer together than the Athena blue insert. So I bought one, make a pattern by mounting the lever on friction over a piece of cardboard to try the shifting on a Shimano 8 speed cassette, and then transferred the pattern to the red Chorus insert to add two more clicks. I was careful and it worked on the first try - I now have a 1989 Campy Syncro bike that shifts perfectly on Shimano 8 speed cassettes.
My experience using Mavic friction derailleurs on HG cassettes suggests that all sorts of derailleurs will index decently if they have HG cogs to help. Athena used the same insert that worked for C-Record, Super Record and Victory, which means it has the same shift geometry going all the way back to Nuovo Record. So one of these days I'm going to put my old Gran Sport derailleur on this bike and see how it shifts on HG 8.
I like index downtube shifting. Clearly. But 8 speed keeps these old parts going on newer wheels and common cassettes.
03-07-23, 12:25 AM
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Shimano SL-R400 indexed DT levers have been around for a long time (and are available new) and presumably work as well as any Shimano indexed DT shifter. Obviously you'd need to run it with a Shimano rear derailleur, but that's easy enough. Otherwise, hunting for a rare 600 (6401) or 105 (1055) 8-speed set would have to happen.
03-07-23, 05:50 AM
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Smooth as silk with a shipmano 8spd cassette
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03-07-23, 07:01 AM
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Shimano SL-R400 indexed DT levers have been around for a long time (and are available new) and presumably work as well as any Shimano indexed DT shifter. Obviously you'd need to run it with a Shimano rear derailleur, but that's easy enough. Otherwise, hunting for a rare 600 (6401) or 105 (1055) 8-speed set would have to happen.
03-09-23, 11:56 PM
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I don't even know if this is pertinent to your topic, but I have an interesting variation to throw in.
I have 8 speed Campy indexed shifters, similar to the "Syncro" line, but not called Syncro. There the last version of the downtube 8 speed indexed shifters. This kind, with the little indexing adjuster on the rear shifter.
Anyway...I originally had a Shimano hubbed wheel and bought a J-Tek adapter for the Campy shifters and the Shimano 8 speed cassette. When I actually got around to building the bike, I forgot to use the J-Tek adapter, didn't notice that I'd forgotten, and it shifted fine, so I didn't bother to take it apart to insert the J-Tek. I later built up a wheel with a Campy 8 speed cassette and it also shifts fine.
I have 8 speed Campy indexed shifters, similar to the "Syncro" line, but not called Syncro. There the last version of the downtube 8 speed indexed shifters. This kind, with the little indexing adjuster on the rear shifter.
Anyway...I originally had a Shimano hubbed wheel and bought a J-Tek adapter for the Campy shifters and the Shimano 8 speed cassette. When I actually got around to building the bike, I forgot to use the J-Tek adapter, didn't notice that I'd forgotten, and it shifted fine, so I didn't bother to take it apart to insert the J-Tek. I later built up a wheel with a Campy 8 speed cassette and it also shifts fine.
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03-11-23, 08:27 AM
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I have 8 speed Sachs New Success on a bike and the shifters really do function flawlessly. Because they thought of such things in those days, they even had a ring that could be turned to shut off the indexing so that you could take an incompatible neutral wheel in a race or to cope with a similar situation outside of racing.
03-11-23, 08:59 AM
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My experience with indexing is that you should generally always consider the throw from the indexed shifter to that of the spacing of the cassette, and that combo will either allow the marriage to flawlessly work or not. I've seen buddies with older shifters w/suntour, try to match up to shimano and its nearly impossible without rubbing somewhere. Generally without doing homework and such, i will match the cassette (suntour) to that of the shifter to insure smooth actuation. The RD really rarely is the issue, I have seen it be on an odd combo, but generally speaking they typically will be fine.
03-11-23, 09:13 AM
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I have three bikes with nicely working 8 speed indexing on Shimano cassettes that shouldn't work, but are great.
1. Years ago I got a Mavic index derailleur but couldn't find a matching shift lever set. Thinking it was some sort of Shimano shift actuation, I found a set of Sachs Aris 8 speed levers to try. What I didn't know at that time was that Sachs had gone from Shimano geometry to Campy 8 geometry when they went from 6/7 to 8 speed. This turned out to be a good thing.
Since the shift lever had a larger diameter barrel pulling more cable than I needed per shift, I reduced the diameter of the shifter until it made the Mavic derailleur index perfectly on a Shimano 8 speed cassette. This sounds technical, but what I actually did was, starting in 7th cog, was to downshift, unhook the cable, use a needle file on the slot where the cable touched, and retry the shift. When it stopped shifting too far, I went on to the next shift down, repeating the process. This took less than an hour.
Sachs 8 speed shifters are still available new - sometimes for cheap. The Rival model I bought has the nicest index feel of any lever I've tried. Unless you have really short throw derailleurs, this technique works really well and allowed the 4.8mm spaced cassette to work well with shifters and derailleur intended for wider.
2. Simple and dumb. I bought a Suntour Superbe 6/7 speed index lever set. These have a ring you can move to select index 6, 7 or ratchet friction. Since it has two scales, it has more than just seven click locations - it appears to just keep clicking all the way around. Anyway, I mounted it to a compatible Suntour Sprint index derailleur and it shift a Shimano 8 cassette perfectly. Only a few Suntour shifters worked like this with extra clicks. Any Suntour derailleur with a barrel adjuster should index well. Yes, Suntour was 5.0 spaced, but it is fine.
3. Really dumb. Shimano 7 speed shifters will shift 8 decently if you tune the indexing from the center of the cassette. First gear has no discernable click, but the friction is sufficient to hold the position. Shimano 7 is also 5.0, and you can tell it is a little off, but the floating pulley makes up for it. 7 speed downtube shifters are plentiful. If you want to tune it better, add velum spacers between the cogs to get closer to 5.0mm.
4. Super fancy. The original Athena/Xenon derailleur was the best Syncro derailleur Campagnolo made. It was only offered with 6 or 7 speed inserts. After comparing photos of different inserts, I noted that the red insert for Chorus narrow range six speed had the clicks closer together than the Athena blue insert. So I bought one, make a pattern by mounting the lever on friction over a piece of cardboard to try the shifting on a Shimano 8 speed cassette, and then transferred the pattern to the red Chorus insert to add two more clicks. I was careful and it worked on the first try - I now have a 1989 Campy Syncro bike that shifts perfectly on Shimano 8 speed cassettes.
My experience using Mavic friction derailleurs on HG cassettes suggests that all sorts of derailleurs will index decently if they have HG cogs to help. Athena used the same insert that worked for C-Record, Super Record and Victory, which means it has the same shift geometry going all the way back to Nuovo Record. So one of these days I'm going to put my old Gran Sport derailleur on this bike and see how it shifts on HG 8.
I like index downtube shifting. Clearly. But 8 speed keeps these old parts going on newer wheels and common cassettes.
1. Years ago I got a Mavic index derailleur but couldn't find a matching shift lever set. Thinking it was some sort of Shimano shift actuation, I found a set of Sachs Aris 8 speed levers to try. What I didn't know at that time was that Sachs had gone from Shimano geometry to Campy 8 geometry when they went from 6/7 to 8 speed. This turned out to be a good thing.
Since the shift lever had a larger diameter barrel pulling more cable than I needed per shift, I reduced the diameter of the shifter until it made the Mavic derailleur index perfectly on a Shimano 8 speed cassette. This sounds technical, but what I actually did was, starting in 7th cog, was to downshift, unhook the cable, use a needle file on the slot where the cable touched, and retry the shift. When it stopped shifting too far, I went on to the next shift down, repeating the process. This took less than an hour.
Sachs 8 speed shifters are still available new - sometimes for cheap. The Rival model I bought has the nicest index feel of any lever I've tried. Unless you have really short throw derailleurs, this technique works really well and allowed the 4.8mm spaced cassette to work well with shifters and derailleur intended for wider.
2. Simple and dumb. I bought a Suntour Superbe 6/7 speed index lever set. These have a ring you can move to select index 6, 7 or ratchet friction. Since it has two scales, it has more than just seven click locations - it appears to just keep clicking all the way around. Anyway, I mounted it to a compatible Suntour Sprint index derailleur and it shift a Shimano 8 cassette perfectly. Only a few Suntour shifters worked like this with extra clicks. Any Suntour derailleur with a barrel adjuster should index well. Yes, Suntour was 5.0 spaced, but it is fine.
3. Really dumb. Shimano 7 speed shifters will shift 8 decently if you tune the indexing from the center of the cassette. First gear has no discernable click, but the friction is sufficient to hold the position. Shimano 7 is also 5.0, and you can tell it is a little off, but the floating pulley makes up for it. 7 speed downtube shifters are plentiful. If you want to tune it better, add velum spacers between the cogs to get closer to 5.0mm.
4. Super fancy. The original Athena/Xenon derailleur was the best Syncro derailleur Campagnolo made. It was only offered with 6 or 7 speed inserts. After comparing photos of different inserts, I noted that the red insert for Chorus narrow range six speed had the clicks closer together than the Athena blue insert. So I bought one, make a pattern by mounting the lever on friction over a piece of cardboard to try the shifting on a Shimano 8 speed cassette, and then transferred the pattern to the red Chorus insert to add two more clicks. I was careful and it worked on the first try - I now have a 1989 Campy Syncro bike that shifts perfectly on Shimano 8 speed cassettes.
My experience using Mavic friction derailleurs on HG cassettes suggests that all sorts of derailleurs will index decently if they have HG cogs to help. Athena used the same insert that worked for C-Record, Super Record and Victory, which means it has the same shift geometry going all the way back to Nuovo Record. So one of these days I'm going to put my old Gran Sport derailleur on this bike and see how it shifts on HG 8.
I like index downtube shifting. Clearly. But 8 speed keeps these old parts going on newer wheels and common cassettes.
Any truth to this?
03-11-23, 11:02 AM
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But even if Sachs made the brifters, the design - using the same springs from Syncro II - indicates that Campy was definitely part of the design.
03-11-23, 12:36 PM
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Whtever Sachs called what became the Ergopowers, that's i'm talking about having seen.
03-11-23, 01:32 PM
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no, it was the reverse. The Ergopower levers were completely a Campagnolo product. There was some cooperation between the companies with Campagnolo supplying Sachs with Ergopower levers for use with the New Success and Rival groups (modified to be Shimano-standard compatible) and cranksets and Sachs produced Sedis chains for use with the Campagnolo groups and some front derailleurs for a couple of the downmarket Campy group sets.
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03-11-23, 05:42 PM
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Ok, thank you!
03-11-23, 06:09 PM
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no, it was the reverse. The Ergopower levers were completely a Campagnolo product. There was some cooperation between the companies with Campagnolo supplying Sachs with Ergopower levers for use with the New Success and Rival groups (modified to be Shimano-standard compatible) and cranksets and Sachs produced Sedis chains for use with the Campagnolo groups and some front derailleurs for a couple of the downmarket Campy group sets.
I have a later New Success RD. I need to mount that on something and try it with a Shimano shifter. It certainly seems like it has different geometry.
