New guy's observation on the C&V forum . . .
04-23-23, 09:58 AM
#76
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I read the stories about "stop ride" orders on top of the line new bikes because the hidden brake or derailleur housings are abrading the carbon steerer tube and I wonder if the bike world has gone too far in its quest for ever lighter weight and technological one-upmanship. If you go on the En Gamba ride in Silly Valley, every single rider seems to be on a brand new $12000 Ridely, BMC or Cevelo with DI2 DA and itr's very much a game of who's got the latest and greatest bike. But they are fragile and prone to failure. Sometimes dangerous failures.
Seems to me something has been lost. Namely it's about the ride, not so much about the bike. The old saying "Racing improves the breed" is true... up to a point. Beyond that, it makes it freaky and prone to failure. I very much doubt that many of those high end Ridleys or Cervelos will be around in 20 years.
The nice thing about the "vintage" bikes is that they are repairable by mere mortals and can be upgraded selectively so as to keep them rideable and enjoyable. I read about fishing the hydraulic lines thru the headtube and the frame and I'm reminded of nothing so much as the current generation of Audis or BMWs. Even the dealers have a hard time maiintaining them.
And the vintage ride is accessible to many people who cannot afford or do not want a $12000 carbon bike that needs a pro-level mechanic to fix a front flat.
OK, rant over. Raining here so no riding today.
/markp
Seems to me something has been lost. Namely it's about the ride, not so much about the bike. The old saying "Racing improves the breed" is true... up to a point. Beyond that, it makes it freaky and prone to failure. I very much doubt that many of those high end Ridleys or Cervelos will be around in 20 years.
The nice thing about the "vintage" bikes is that they are repairable by mere mortals and can be upgraded selectively so as to keep them rideable and enjoyable. I read about fishing the hydraulic lines thru the headtube and the frame and I'm reminded of nothing so much as the current generation of Audis or BMWs. Even the dealers have a hard time maiintaining them.
And the vintage ride is accessible to many people who cannot afford or do not want a $12000 carbon bike that needs a pro-level mechanic to fix a front flat.
OK, rant over. Raining here so no riding today.
/markp
Perhaps rather than the usual us versus them screed understand that there are good reasons why a vast majority of cyclists prefer modern bikes and realistically their interests in the sport are different. To most people bikes are just a tool to facilitate a sport, you would never see a skier, tennis player or marathon runner keep their used equipment. Cyclists past a certain age who have multiple bikes probably have kept a C&V bike or two but still ride their modern bikes a vast majority of the time. Modern bike riders are indifferent or even admire vintage bikes but rarely denigrate them unlike the other way around. No need to exaggerate the flaws in modern bikes or deny there advances. If I go for a spirited fast out and back, a century or a month long tour I am taking a modern bike but that’s me. I am not saying it is not possible on a C&V bike however it’s pretty hard to honestly say it would be better.
Almost 20 year old bike perfectly safe and rideable.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 04-23-23 at 10:01 AM.
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04-23-23, 10:05 AM
#77
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I’m 52 and the love of bikes made prior to my birth is my MO as well. Those years also happen to be the pre bike boom era. I have no empirical data but I think many mass produced bikes, pre-boom, were much higher quality than the stuff produced during the boom. Quality certainly caught up in the 1980s but most bikes built in the 1970s I have little interest in.
04-23-23, 10:05 AM
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at 20 years old that bike in the pic qualifies as "Vintage"
Almost
Don't get me wrong I love DI2 shifting and lightweight parts. My post was mostly intended to suggest that those trends have perhaps gone too far, driven by the cycling industrial complex.
Drawing a parallel, an F1 car is cool ! but not really suitable for a trip to the grocery store.
I do fiind those stop ride orders worrisome however. The hidden cable routing is fussy. At least to me.
But what do I know ?
/markp
Almost
Don't get me wrong I love DI2 shifting and lightweight parts. My post was mostly intended to suggest that those trends have perhaps gone too far, driven by the cycling industrial complex.
Drawing a parallel, an F1 car is cool ! but not really suitable for a trip to the grocery store.
I do fiind those stop ride orders worrisome however. The hidden cable routing is fussy. At least to me.
But what do I know ?
/markp
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04-23-23, 12:12 PM
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This is a big part of it for me, I can't justify to myself dropping at least couple thousand bucks of family income on a new/recent bike even though I'd say this is my 'primary hobby' and I ride a lot. We don't have that money sitting around. Bike magazines want me to believe that modern 'entry level' is more than I can afford, and the periodic click-bait articles online pitching 'old vs new bikes' rarely mention budget (but, yeah, they're click-bait by design). So either I play around with old bikes, picking up parts and bikes easily and cheaply or... I'm not cycling? Meh... Maybe it is also an age thing (50) where I'm not too worried about what others think about the bike I'm riding.
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04-23-23, 12:48 PM
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https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cotters.html
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04-23-23, 01:05 PM
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Looks like we rambled the OP off from the jump, he hasn't posted here since he started this, 80 posts ago. 
But plenty of posts elsewhere.
But plenty of posts elsewhere.
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04-23-23, 01:34 PM
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Just my .02, death brake housings are no different than death forks.
04-23-23, 01:36 PM
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60. Zero interest in new bike technology. As I get older my interest in anything other than riding my old 70s/80s bikes lessens…even reading and responding to CV threads..doh! That being said this is the only forum I still look at frequently. I don’t read all the posts but I still like looking at old bikes so keep posting pics! Here’s one from a recent ride.
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04-23-23, 01:43 PM
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But back to the OP. I see most folks here as one or a combination of the following.
- Never got rid of their new bike and by attrition, it is C&V
- Nostalgic for the bikes of their youth
- Want a good bang for your bike buck
- Great way to work with your hands
- Partial to a certain aesthetic style
- Geeked by the racing history
- Geeked by the differences in the manufacturing history
- The bike is a jewel, not a tool
- As for the subforum itself, most folks are generous with knowledge
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04-23-23, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoastJon
Is that like some weird seggs-related euphemism? I can't keep up with you youngsters and your lingo...
Originally Posted by 1989Pre
Mister, I say just what I mean. You do not know what a cottered crank is?
Just in case the post by LeftCoastJon above was not tongue-in-cheek:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cotters.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cotters.html
04-23-23, 04:26 PM
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There are so many exaggerations and mistruths in your post however this is C&V so it’s not the place to enter into a reasonable discussion on why modern bikes are an amazing contribution to the sport. Been there tried that.
Perhaps rather than the usual us versus them screed understand that there are good reasons why a vast majority of cyclists prefer modern bikes and realistically their interests in the sport are different. To most people bikes are just a tool to facilitate a sport, you would never see a skier, tennis player or marathon runner keep their used equipment. Cyclists past a certain age who have multiple bikes probably have kept a C&V bike or two but still ride their modern bikes a vast majority of the time. Modern bike riders are indifferent or even admire vintage bikes but rarely denigrate them unlike the other way around. No need to exaggerate the flaws in modern bikes or deny there advances. If I go for a spirited fast out and back, a century or a month long tour I am taking a modern bike but that’s me. I am not saying it is not possible on a C&V bike however it’s pretty hard to honestly say it would be better.
Almost 20 year old bike perfectly safe and rideable.
Perhaps rather than the usual us versus them screed understand that there are good reasons why a vast majority of cyclists prefer modern bikes and realistically their interests in the sport are different. To most people bikes are just a tool to facilitate a sport, you would never see a skier, tennis player or marathon runner keep their used equipment. Cyclists past a certain age who have multiple bikes probably have kept a C&V bike or two but still ride their modern bikes a vast majority of the time. Modern bike riders are indifferent or even admire vintage bikes but rarely denigrate them unlike the other way around. No need to exaggerate the flaws in modern bikes or deny there advances. If I go for a spirited fast out and back, a century or a month long tour I am taking a modern bike but that’s me. I am not saying it is not possible on a C&V bike however it’s pretty hard to honestly say it would be better.
Almost 20 year old bike perfectly safe and rideable.
04-23-23, 04:41 PM
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There are so many exaggerations and mistruths in your post however this is C&V so it’s not the place to enter into a reasonable discussion on why modern bikes are an amazing contribution to the sport. Been there tried that.
Perhaps rather than the usual us versus them screed understand that there are good reasons why a vast majority of cyclists prefer modern bikes and realistically their interests in the sport are different. To most people bikes are just a tool to facilitate a sport, you would never see a skier, tennis player or marathon runner keep their used equipment. Cyclists past a certain age who have multiple bikes probably have kept a C&V bike or two but still ride their modern bikes a vast majority of the time. Modern bike riders are indifferent or even admire vintage bikes but rarely denigrate them unlike the other way around. No need to exaggerate the flaws in modern bikes or deny there advances. If I go for a spirited fast out and back, a century or a month long tour I am taking a modern bike but that’s me. I am not saying it is not possible on a C&V bike however it’s pretty hard to honestly say it would be better.
Almost 20 year old bike perfectly safe and rideable.
Perhaps rather than the usual us versus them screed understand that there are good reasons why a vast majority of cyclists prefer modern bikes and realistically their interests in the sport are different. To most people bikes are just a tool to facilitate a sport, you would never see a skier, tennis player or marathon runner keep their used equipment. Cyclists past a certain age who have multiple bikes probably have kept a C&V bike or two but still ride their modern bikes a vast majority of the time. Modern bike riders are indifferent or even admire vintage bikes but rarely denigrate them unlike the other way around. No need to exaggerate the flaws in modern bikes or deny there advances. If I go for a spirited fast out and back, a century or a month long tour I am taking a modern bike but that’s me. I am not saying it is not possible on a C&V bike however it’s pretty hard to honestly say it would be better.
Almost 20 year old bike perfectly safe and rideable.
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04-23-23, 04:46 PM
#88
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When I got serious about a new bike about a year or so ago I gravitated to David Kirk because I like the idea of hand made by a single master and his bikes are classic in appearance. No vintage for me, however, because I like the trouble-free nature of new stuff. The Kirk should be delivered to me in the coming month. Til then, riding my (now) trusty Ribble Ti road bike. Ribble is Shimano 105 Di2 but the Kirk and the two Italian gems will be Campy with rim brakes.
04-23-23, 05:01 PM
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You won't be rid of me that easily . . . When I got serious about a new bike about a year or so ago I gravitated to David Kirk because I like the idea of hand made by a single master and his bikes are classic in appearance. No vintage for me, however, because I like the trouble-free nature of new stuff. The Kirk should be delivered to me in the coming month. Til then, riding my (now) trusty Ribble Ti road bike. Ribble is Shimano 105 Di2 but the Kirk and the two Italian gems will be Campy with rim brakes.
When I got serious about a new bike about a year or so ago I gravitated to David Kirk because I like the idea of hand made by a single master and his bikes are classic in appearance. No vintage for me, however, because I like the trouble-free nature of new stuff. The Kirk should be delivered to me in the coming month. Til then, riding my (now) trusty Ribble Ti road bike. Ribble is Shimano 105 Di2 but the Kirk and the two Italian gems will be Campy with rim brakes.You're obviously like minded, it doesn't take much to spin us up, as you can see.
04-23-23, 05:16 PM
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I think each person has a different approach.Modern bikes are different from vintage ones. Yours bike despite being 20 years old but is not really looking a vintage one. Carbon framed bike victories started with Lance Armstrong in 1999 and before that steel and aluminium were the predominant materials in the bike industry. Before that Reynolds framed steel bikes won the tour de France 27 times, Dedacciai won the Tour de France 4 times with the 7003 Lite Alloy Pinarello framed bikes used byRiis, Ulrich and Indurain. I don't think that a majority of riders prefer modern bikes to vintage or older ones.You can't affirm that a high end vintage or modern steel framed bike with upgraded componentry can't be a match to a modern bike. There is also one thing you omitted ,it is quality, do you think anyone serious would buy or spend 5000$ on a carbon bike made in China? I don't think so, anyone who wants a durable and quality ride would rather buy a high end older steel vintage frame or modern high end steel frame (made in Italy or UK or USA) and equip it with modern componentry. I always ride on bikes that are between 26-30 years old of age. I am 44 and I prefer an older high end steel frame to anything made of carbon regarding frames.
I got vintage steel as well which should qualify for this group. The Raleigh is totally original including the tires and the Marinoni is a custom for me with the original 7 speed Dura Ace and tubular wheels in a box somewhere, its in perfect condition. I have nothing against these bikes and love the fact that people collect and restore them. I have nothing against steel and prefer it for the right use case (adventure touring). But when people go on about how inferior and troublesome newer bikes are I find it silly and call that out. Other than cost and interchangeability, I cant think of one area where C&V items perform better than modern equipment. But its not just about performance and I get that so enjoy but no need to make up BS on how terrible newer bikes are.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 04-23-23 at 06:16 PM.
04-23-23, 06:34 PM
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04-23-23, 06:57 PM
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You do not to admire C&V as much as a C&Ver and a C&Ver does not have to admire modern bike tech as you. I mean, fer****sake, why is that difficult for you?
btw, the yuge jockey wheel on that Haley in the vid reminds me of ear hole piercings. God bless if it is what you want to do, but it ain't for me.
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04-23-23, 07:01 PM
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Also notice in the vid threading the crabon BB shell. I wonder why .....
04-23-23, 07:16 PM
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Why are you so confused?
You do not to admire C&V as much as a C&Ver and a C&Ver does not have to admire modern bike tech as you. I mean, fer****sake, why is that difficult for you?
btw, the yuge jockey wheel on that Haley in the vid reminds me of ear hole piercings. God bless if it is what you want to do, but it ain't for me.
You do not to admire C&V as much as a C&Ver and a C&Ver does not have to admire modern bike tech as you. I mean, fer****sake, why is that difficult for you?
btw, the yuge jockey wheel on that Haley in the vid reminds me of ear hole piercings. God bless if it is what you want to do, but it ain't for me.
“$12000 carbon bike that needs a pro-level mechanic to fix a front flat.”
”I very much doubt that many of those high end Ridleys or Cervelos will be around in 20 years.”
”But they are fragile and prone to failure.”
As always I end with enjoy your C&V bikes and have fun. Just trying to see if there is actually something I am missing here.
04-23-23, 07:47 PM
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My actual tools, like my lawnmower, is disgustingly dirty. It’s not art to me. Like your bike.
Modern bikes are functionally superior. I find them ugly and they have features for which I have no use. What’s the problem?
For us, “bike riding is not a matter of numbers alone. [We] ride because [we] enjoy it on many levels, including an aesthetic one, a pleasure in riding a bike [we] like to look at (and like to show off).”
And yes, you’re missing a lot. I’m not optimistic that will ever change.
Last edited by smd4; 04-23-23 at 07:51 PM.
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04-23-23, 08:22 PM
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Not at all just having a discussion and trying to learn from a segment of cyclists I never encounter out and about in the regular cycling community. Cycling has been a big part of my life since the late 70’s and I have never encountered this level of hostility and lack or reasonable discussion when questioned. Sure I have been a smart ass but what can you expect when a regular poster criticizes modern bike maintenance yet rides a bike with perfectly white saddle and bar tape. Either it is never ridden or cleaned post ride for who knows how long. I am supposed to be able to feel the difference between silver and brass brazing? Lug design affects ride feel of a bike, really? What I find interesting pro C&V posts go up spouting ridiculous crap without any counter point yet trying to discuss it from a contrarian point of view it just rains down.
“$12000 carbon bike that needs a pro-level mechanic to fix a front flat.”
”I very much doubt that many of those high end Ridleys or Cervelos will be around in 20 years.”
”But they are fragile and prone to failure.”
As always I end with enjoy your C&V bikes and have fun. Just trying to see if there is actually something I am missing here.
“$12000 carbon bike that needs a pro-level mechanic to fix a front flat.”
”I very much doubt that many of those high end Ridleys or Cervelos will be around in 20 years.”
”But they are fragile and prone to failure.”
As always I end with enjoy your C&V bikes and have fun. Just trying to see if there is actually something I am missing here.
Now to your specific complaints in this particular post. When I take a picture, it is at the end of the build and before the first ride. For that picture, my bar tape is white as the driven snow. Now, it looks like hell. And you know what, if I go to sell it, I'd re-wrap it for the sale. Duh.
As for waxing poetic about ride quality, I consider it all ********, whether steel lugged or vertically compliant laterally stiff crabon. If you want to call specific BS as BS, please do, but you don't. You make overly generalized stereotypes which as you have gathered are not welcome. Or, you could let it go, call it artistic license, or whatever stops you from writing something stupid.
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04-23-23, 08:31 PM
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Why do you even post here? Are you really that insecure about your place in the cycling community? It’s like you consider yourself the designated defender of all things modern/carbon. The big question is… why?
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04-23-23, 10:02 PM
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I enjoy my vintage bikes, I enjoy my classic bikes, and I enjoy my modern bikes. I love steel, love titanium, and ... appreciate carbon. I ride 11-speed, but the industry lost me when they started routing cables through the headset, hydraulic braking, and pushing electronic shifting. I'll stick to mechanical stuff that I can (mostly) work on myself, thank you. A bike should be simpler than that.
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04-23-23, 10:57 PM
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I enjoy my vintage bikes, I enjoy my classic bikes, and I enjoy my modern bikes. I love steel, love titanium, and ... appreciate carbon. I ride 11-speed, but the industry lost me when they started routing cables through the headset, hydraulic braking, and pushing electronic shifting. I'll stick to mechanical stuff that I can (mostly) work on myself, thank you. A bike should be simpler than that.
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04-23-23, 11:13 PM
#100
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My tools are clean too. I always just wipe them off after I use them. It's just my nature, I don't find it difficult to use a rag, and I enjoy the whole process.
I assume Ayn Rand could use a rag as well. I don't figure her for a sloppy gal.