Helmets cramp my style
02-18-08, 09:30 AM
#2852
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If your helmet actually cracked then it probably did nothing.
Magnanimous of you.
02-18-08, 07:14 PM
#2853
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I organize these rides all the time, and they are a major headache, but they are worth it. For one thing, they bring all kinds of money into the area from spectators and visitors. They are great publicity for the area, and are great fund-raisers.
This is also true of Festivals, Fairs, Concerts, etc....You have no idea what all is involved behind the scenes to make these things happen.
02-18-08, 07:38 PM
#2855
Senior Member
Organized cycling events such as charity rides, centuries and other sponsored events require the sponsors to have liablility insurance before the cities or counties will give you a permit or permission to host the ride. Even parades require liablilty insurance in case a participant gets injured and decides to sue. One of the conditions the insurance company will invariably require is that all persons participating wear a helmet while riding. They will make other requirements as well, such as an EMT on duty and standing by, police traffic control at certain points, SAG wagons, all participants must sign a release (and you thought all we did was make T-Shirts to give away, huh???), and a myriad of other details. That's what the entry fees are for...to offset these expenses.
I organize these rides all the time, and they are a major headache, but they are worth it. For one thing, they bring all kinds of money into the area from spectators and visitors. They are great publicity for the area, and are great fund-raisers.
This is also true of Festivals, Fairs, Concerts, etc....You have no idea what all is involved behind the scenes to make these things happen.
I organize these rides all the time, and they are a major headache, but they are worth it. For one thing, they bring all kinds of money into the area from spectators and visitors. They are great publicity for the area, and are great fund-raisers.
This is also true of Festivals, Fairs, Concerts, etc....You have no idea what all is involved behind the scenes to make these things happen.
It seems that "common sense" dictates that a helmet does provide some protection. Whether this is true or not is another question.
It seems that everybody's dodging the issue of liability.
02-19-08, 09:29 PM
#2856
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02-19-08, 09:31 PM
#2857
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Not necessarily, as it will distribute the forces across a much wider area of the helmet, and not just at that point source that cracked. The fact that it did crack shows that this force was significant.
John
John
02-19-08, 10:58 PM
#2858
Senior Member
If you think this is "making fun of somebody for wearing a helmet" and not being bemused at silly reasoning, I think you have silly reasoning that I'm not sure is amusing or just sad. I know that's in league with what I've posted a few pages back (in post#2784) about things posted that are just not true and simply, made up. I know it's a view not worth being concerned about and I know it's worth it to put you back on the ignore list.
Last edited by closetbiker; 02-19-08 at 11:20 PM.
02-19-08, 11:16 PM
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I forgot to put you back on the ignore list.
If you think this is "making fun of somebody for wearing a helmet" and not being bemused at silly reasoning, I think you have silly reasoning that I'm not sure is amusing or just sad. I know it's a view not worth being concerned about and I know it's worth it to put you back on the ignore list.
If you think this is "making fun of somebody for wearing a helmet" and not being bemused at silly reasoning, I think you have silly reasoning that I'm not sure is amusing or just sad. I know it's a view not worth being concerned about and I know it's worth it to put you back on the ignore list.
Urban Dictionary's definition of "rolling eyes" is:
1. rolling eyes
14 up, 10 down
Condescension, contempt, boredom, or exasperation.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=rolling+eyes
14 up, 10 down
Condescension, contempt, boredom, or exasperation.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=rolling+eyes
John
Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 02-19-08 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Add text.
02-20-08, 08:10 AM
#2860
Senior Member
Closetbiker,
Urban Dictionary's definition of "rolling eyes" is:
It is not "bemused," or "silly reasoning." Perhaps it is actually worse than "making fun of..." too. I think you need to look at your own responses, and how they could be perceived by others. As for the infamous "ignore list," go ahead. But I'll respond anyway to what I feel needs to be responded to.
John
Urban Dictionary's definition of "rolling eyes" is:
It is not "bemused," or "silly reasoning." Perhaps it is actually worse than "making fun of..." too. I think you need to look at your own responses, and how they could be perceived by others. As for the infamous "ignore list," go ahead. But I'll respond anyway to what I feel needs to be responded to.
John
02-20-08, 10:17 AM
#2861
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The point is that helmets are designed solely to absorb a certain amount of energy. The polystyrene is supposed to slowly deform to absorb the energy. There's only a fairly narrow "window" of energy which they can cope with. Too low a speed/weight at impact and the EPP/EPS acts as a near-rigid material. Too high a speed/weight and the EPP/EPS just cracks apart without crushing/deforming slowly (and hence absorbing energy and thus reducing the deceleration).
If the helmet cracked as opposed to crushed then it's operating outside of its optimal design. It will surely absorb some energy but not an amount deemed useful by the manufacturers.
Signficant in what sense? To me all that it shows was that the helmet encountered a force beyond the very small amount of energy that it is designed to help with. That's the bizarre thing about all these "My helmet cracked which shows my life was saved" anecdotes: what they actually show is that a vocal minority are routinely exceeding the protective capacity of their helmets.
02-20-08, 10:26 AM
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"Slow" actually being a non-useful word there because it's not quantified. In fact it's better to read the post as though I had never said "slow" in it. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
02-21-08, 03:46 PM
#2863
Old and in the way.
Well I bought my first bicycle helmet. two crashes, one near hit in a week and I feel like my luck is running out. I probably wont wear it all the time, but I am not going to tell others what to wear/not wear either.
02-23-08, 12:53 AM
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Bike club rides all seem to require the wearing of a helmet to participate in their rides these days. I choose to not wear one when I ride, and am not required to wear one to ride on any public road I want in California. Can anyone explain why clubs do this, despite the signing of liability waivers?
02-23-08, 01:24 AM
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Bike club rides all seem to require the wearing of a helmet to participate in their rides these days. I choose to not wear one when I ride, and am not required to wear one to ride on any public road I want in California. Can anyone explain why clubs do this, despite the signing of liability waivers?
I did the Solvang ride a number of years ago, and took my helmet off during one of the long, hot climbs. A police officer drove by and, over the P.A., said "Put your helmet on!" I yelled back to the effect that I was surprised police were now authorized to enforce bicycle club rules, which yielded no response.
Being California, I suppose I should simply be glad I didn't get tazed.
02-23-08, 10:15 AM
#2866
Old and in the way.
I've always wondered how they think they're going to enforce it. There have been a number of times I've simply "hopped the freight" as a club ride went by. Short of knocking me down, I'm not sure how they can prevent me from using the same public road they are.
I did the Solvang ride a number of years ago, and took my helmet off during one of the long, hot climbs. A police officer drove by and, over the P.A., said "Put your helmet on!" I yelled back to the effect that I was surprised police were now authorized to enforce bicycle club rules, which yielded no response.
Being California, I suppose I should simply be glad I didn't get tazed.
I did the Solvang ride a number of years ago, and took my helmet off during one of the long, hot climbs. A police officer drove by and, over the P.A., said "Put your helmet on!" I yelled back to the effect that I was surprised police were now authorized to enforce bicycle club rules, which yielded no response.
Being California, I suppose I should simply be glad I didn't get tazed.
In Portland if you were unarmed first they would shoot you THEN tase you...
02-24-08, 02:26 AM
#2867
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I'm not supposed to commute with lycra, gloves, a helmet and cycling shoes? 
That'd be a long 40 miles round trip.
That'd be a long 40 miles round trip.
02-24-08, 09:17 AM
#2868
Senior Member
I've always wondered how, in the eyes of the insurance company, if all the warnings and disclaimers absolve the manufacturer of liability in the event of an injury while wearing the helmet, if one doesn't wear that helmet, that person is liable for their injury that the manufacturer wouldn't be liable for.
02-24-08, 06:51 PM
#2869
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I've always wondered how, in the eyes of the insurance company, if all the warnings and disclaimers absolve the manufacturer of liability in the event of an injury while wearing the helmet, if one doesn't wear that helmet, that person is liable for their injury that the manufacturer wouldn't be liable for.
You've asked this several times, with no one answering. Here is a potential answer for you:
Warnings
Manufacturers are required to inform users of their products about any but obvious dangers. Failure to warn is in itself considered a defect by the courts. Therefore, a product can be considered to be defective by design, manufacture, failure to warn, or any combination of these three. In Chapter 11 numerous methods are described for alerting and warning personnel of dangers. In this case, however, the use of warnings is more to alert prospective purchasers and users that potential dangers exist in a product, penerally through the use of labels (or other markings on the product). Effective wornings may reduce errors and accidents by focusing the attention of operators on the conditions in which specific actions should be taken.
In the past there was no consistent method of preparing warnings. The key words to attract attention, CAUTION, WARNING, and DANGER, were often used indiscriminately to indicate different degrees of urgency. There is now a consistent method proposed for use of the three signal words that designate a degree or level of hazard seriousness.
1. DANGER indicates an imminently hazardous situation which, if not avoided, will result in death or serious injury. It is to be limited to the most serious situations.
2. WARNING indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not avoided, could result in death or serious injury.
3. CAUTION indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not avoided, may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to alert against unsafe practices. It is permitted for property-damage-only accidents.
These definitions are taken from the American National Standard ANSI Z535.4-1991, "Product Safety Signs and Labels."
A warning is, in effect, a procedural means of alerting operators to the fact that there has been a failure to eliminate, or adequately control by design, a hazard that might lead to an accident, injury, or liability claim. To warn is considered a duty by law, in order to lessen the possibility of an accident. Labels are a major type of visual warning, but in many cases their content is deficient, and often are considered inadequate in the event of a trial. Warnings should be written in languages understandable to all potential users, and if the distribution of a potentially hazardous product is extremely widespread, labels should be multilingual.
Use of the signal word alone is inadequate; each warning label must contain at least two other items of information. THe labels should indicate:
1. The action to be taken to avoid injury of damage.
2. The consequences that might result if the indicated action is not taken.
In addition, othre information might be required for specific hazardous products. For a substance that might be fatal if taken internally, information on the antidotes or actions to be taken should be provided. If the product might be used by an illiterate person, a person too young to read, or a person not capable of reading English, a warning symbol should be provided. If the user can read another language, another label in that language should be provided. Or, the alerting word and the necessary information should be provided. Or, the alerting word and the necessary information should be provided in the foreign language. If a government standard prescribes that specific warning symbols, color, and wording be used, they must be on the worning...
...The warning should attempt to convey all the necessary information in as few words as possible...
...A warning label should not be used as a substitute for good design. The fact that a warning label has been placed on a piece of equipment is prima facie evidence that the manufacturer knew that a safety problem existed. Whether or not the manufacturer would be held liable might depend on whether or not he could show that he had attempted to eliminate or minimize the hazard, the hazard could not be eliminated, design could provide no or only a limited safeguard, and the worning was the only safeguard that could reasonably be provided.
Hammer, Willie, Product Safety Management and Engineering, Second Edition, American Society of Safety Engineers, ISBN# 0-939874-9[0-3, 1993, pages 91-96
Manufacturers are required to inform users of their products about any but obvious dangers. Failure to warn is in itself considered a defect by the courts. Therefore, a product can be considered to be defective by design, manufacture, failure to warn, or any combination of these three. In Chapter 11 numerous methods are described for alerting and warning personnel of dangers. In this case, however, the use of warnings is more to alert prospective purchasers and users that potential dangers exist in a product, penerally through the use of labels (or other markings on the product). Effective wornings may reduce errors and accidents by focusing the attention of operators on the conditions in which specific actions should be taken.
In the past there was no consistent method of preparing warnings. The key words to attract attention, CAUTION, WARNING, and DANGER, were often used indiscriminately to indicate different degrees of urgency. There is now a consistent method proposed for use of the three signal words that designate a degree or level of hazard seriousness.
1. DANGER indicates an imminently hazardous situation which, if not avoided, will result in death or serious injury. It is to be limited to the most serious situations.
2. WARNING indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not avoided, could result in death or serious injury.
3. CAUTION indicates a potentially hazardous situation which, if not avoided, may result in minor or moderate injury. It may also be used to alert against unsafe practices. It is permitted for property-damage-only accidents.
These definitions are taken from the American National Standard ANSI Z535.4-1991, "Product Safety Signs and Labels."
A warning is, in effect, a procedural means of alerting operators to the fact that there has been a failure to eliminate, or adequately control by design, a hazard that might lead to an accident, injury, or liability claim. To warn is considered a duty by law, in order to lessen the possibility of an accident. Labels are a major type of visual warning, but in many cases their content is deficient, and often are considered inadequate in the event of a trial. Warnings should be written in languages understandable to all potential users, and if the distribution of a potentially hazardous product is extremely widespread, labels should be multilingual.
Use of the signal word alone is inadequate; each warning label must contain at least two other items of information. THe labels should indicate:
1. The action to be taken to avoid injury of damage.
2. The consequences that might result if the indicated action is not taken.
In addition, othre information might be required for specific hazardous products. For a substance that might be fatal if taken internally, information on the antidotes or actions to be taken should be provided. If the product might be used by an illiterate person, a person too young to read, or a person not capable of reading English, a warning symbol should be provided. If the user can read another language, another label in that language should be provided. Or, the alerting word and the necessary information should be provided. Or, the alerting word and the necessary information should be provided in the foreign language. If a government standard prescribes that specific warning symbols, color, and wording be used, they must be on the worning...
...The warning should attempt to convey all the necessary information in as few words as possible...
...A warning label should not be used as a substitute for good design. The fact that a warning label has been placed on a piece of equipment is prima facie evidence that the manufacturer knew that a safety problem existed. Whether or not the manufacturer would be held liable might depend on whether or not he could show that he had attempted to eliminate or minimize the hazard, the hazard could not be eliminated, design could provide no or only a limited safeguard, and the worning was the only safeguard that could reasonably be provided.
Hammer, Willie, Product Safety Management and Engineering, Second Edition, American Society of Safety Engineers, ISBN# 0-939874-9[0-3, 1993, pages 91-96
John
Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 02-24-08 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Edit ANSI Standard as "Z535.4-1991, not "2535.4-1991."
02-24-08, 07:16 PM
#2870
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My GIRO helmet warning reads:
My Nutcase helmet warning reads:
From my perspective, the Nutcase warning needs a somewhat better translation ("chin" instead of "throat") and there is one spelling error, but it is more thorough than the GIRO warning.
Warnings have a long history in product safety, especially when the product is going internationally. In my work, I've helped develop warnings for some of the machines we manufactured, and they included laser radiation hazards, a pacemaker hazard for magnetic fields, as well as the normal safety hazards for pinch points, etc. Warnings do not absolve the manufacturer of liability, but do potentially help prevent accidents by requiring personal protective equipment, engineering controls (such as interlocks), etc. As stated above, if there is a hazard and no warning, there is a greater liability on the manufacturer's part.
Insurance companies do their "due diligence" on the companies that they insure to make sure they comply with the recognized standards, such as the ANSI Z535.4 standard on hazard labels. This standard was updated last year, and is now known as the ANSI Z535.4-2007 American National Standard For Product Safety Signs and Labels.
John
WARNING: No helmet can prevent all head injuries or death. Read Manual. Helmet must fit snugly, with chinstrap comfortably tight. Destroy and replace helmet after impact damage-damage can be invisible. Solvents may damage helmet invisibly. Clean only with mild soap and water.
HELMET SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR SAKETBOARD AND PEDAL CYCLISTS ONLY.
Complies with U.S. CPSC Safety Standard for Bicycle Helmets for Persons Age 5 and Older.
WARNING! THIS HELMET IS NOT FOR MOTOR VECHICLE USE. Some head injuries cannot be prevented by any helmet. Even very low speed accidents can result in serious injury or death. This helmet must fit snugly. The chin strap must fit firmly against the throat. The buckle must be fastened securely. DO not use chemicals to clean the helmet. Chemical damage may or may not be visible. Use soap and water. Read the helmet owner's manual carefully before using the helmet. If impacted, helmet must be returned for inspection or destroyed.
MADE IN CHINA CERTIFICATE #00-3040-3
URS: 5016964 Date: July 2005
Complies with U.S. CPSC Safety Standard for Bicycle Helmets for Persons Age 5 and Older.
WARNING! THIS HELMET IS NOT FOR MOTOR VECHICLE USE. Some head injuries cannot be prevented by any helmet. Even very low speed accidents can result in serious injury or death. This helmet must fit snugly. The chin strap must fit firmly against the throat. The buckle must be fastened securely. DO not use chemicals to clean the helmet. Chemical damage may or may not be visible. Use soap and water. Read the helmet owner's manual carefully before using the helmet. If impacted, helmet must be returned for inspection or destroyed.
MADE IN CHINA CERTIFICATE #00-3040-3
URS: 5016964 Date: July 2005
Warnings have a long history in product safety, especially when the product is going internationally. In my work, I've helped develop warnings for some of the machines we manufactured, and they included laser radiation hazards, a pacemaker hazard for magnetic fields, as well as the normal safety hazards for pinch points, etc. Warnings do not absolve the manufacturer of liability, but do potentially help prevent accidents by requiring personal protective equipment, engineering controls (such as interlocks), etc. As stated above, if there is a hazard and no warning, there is a greater liability on the manufacturer's part.
Insurance companies do their "due diligence" on the companies that they insure to make sure they comply with the recognized standards, such as the ANSI Z535.4 standard on hazard labels. This standard was updated last year, and is now known as the ANSI Z535.4-2007 American National Standard For Product Safety Signs and Labels.
John
Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 02-24-08 at 07:57 PM. Reason: change on word "properties" to "fields." Also change "2535.4" to "Z535.4."
02-27-08, 09:45 PM
#2871
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Hehe, I have only just found this wonderful forum today and I am ready to rant a little bit.
Thankfully I have only had to work a handful of car/truck v/s bike accidents. Unfortunately of those I have had to work, the ones where the rider did not have any type of head protection were fatalities (otherwise known as DRTs' (dead right there)). For those that dont advocate the wearing of a helmet I just hope no driver decides to open their door as you ride up on it, no drunk driver decides to race out of a 7-11 parking lot as you cruse by. I truly hope you don't ever need it, and I hope no cop has to look down at you and mutter something about DRT...
Most Accidents involving bicycles tend not to be the fault of the cyclist, but typically the cyclist takes most of the damage. It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Oh yea, in most states it is the law.
Thankfully I have only had to work a handful of car/truck v/s bike accidents. Unfortunately of those I have had to work, the ones where the rider did not have any type of head protection were fatalities (otherwise known as DRTs' (dead right there)). For those that dont advocate the wearing of a helmet I just hope no driver decides to open their door as you ride up on it, no drunk driver decides to race out of a 7-11 parking lot as you cruse by. I truly hope you don't ever need it, and I hope no cop has to look down at you and mutter something about DRT...
Most Accidents involving bicycles tend not to be the fault of the cyclist, but typically the cyclist takes most of the damage. It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Oh yea, in most states it is the law.
02-27-08, 10:08 PM
#2872
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Speaking as a former paramedic, in every bicycle/car interaction I went to -- including the "DRTs" -- the cyclist was wearing a helmet. So I guess my personal anecdote cancels out yours, eh? 
BTW, anyone who thinks a bit of foam on the head is going to help when struck by a half-million foot-pounds of motorized kinetic energy is seriously kidding himself.
BTW, anyone who thinks a bit of foam on the head is going to help when struck by a half-million foot-pounds of motorized kinetic energy is seriously kidding himself.
02-27-08, 11:11 PM
#2873
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Speaking as a former paramedic, in every bicycle/car interaction I went to -- including the "DRTs" -- the cyclist was wearing a helmet. So I guess my personal anecdote cancels out yours, eh?
BTW, anyone who thinks a bit of foam on the head is going to help when struck by a half-million foot-pounds of motorized kinetic energy is seriously kidding himself.
BTW, anyone who thinks a bit of foam on the head is going to help when struck by a half-million foot-pounds of motorized kinetic energy is seriously kidding himself.
Personally I wish they had something out there that would protect the neck from laundry lines.
02-28-08, 10:22 AM
#2874
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And that's really the bottom line with helmets -- there are people who do their own personal cost/benefit analyses and decide a standard bicycle helmet is not for them; just as you have done the cost/benefit analyses for motorcycle helmets, full-face bicycle helmets, knee and elbow pads and decided they are not for you. You've chosen an arbitrary spot on the cost/benefit continuum that suits you, and that's great.
The only real problem, then, is that some of the pro-helmet folks have decided that their personal analyses should go for everyone else; that their personal spot on the continuum is the best spot for all cyclists; and that anyone rejecting those analyses in favor of their own must be some kind of moron who needs to be protected from himself, by force of law, if need be.
03-02-08, 03:35 AM
#2875
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Amen!! Well put. People shouldn't be legislated on this issue for sure. Let everyone do what makes sense for them.