PeteHski

Yup, same as any activity you do often enough to become second nature. It becomes a subconscious response once learned.

bruce19

Countersteering is turn wheel right to lean left and vice versa. Not sure if that's what you are saying.

bruce19

Yes a moto racer and track instructor. It was a long time ago. I can''t remember his name.I have one of his books and a VCR.

rm -rf

An entertaining video from Mike Boyd, while he attempts to ride a bike with a geared steerer that turns the wheel the opposite way of the handlebars.
The backwards bike

Minute Physics
How do Bikes Stay Up?
"Bicycles can ride themselves. Yes, once they are set in motion at a sufficient speed, bicycles can stay upright without any human intervention."
This interesting video explores the various inputs that affect a bike's steering.

urbanknight

In the car racing world, countersteer refers to the input you make.

Ironfish653

Countersteering has a different meaning when applied to cars, as opposed to two-wheeled vehicles. It’s a different technique, done at different times, for different reasons, between two-wheel cycles and 4-wheelers

The confusion comes from that more people are familiar with the car term, and are trying to understand bicycle physics, using “car” as their frame of reference.

If you’ve done any basic motorcycle training; you’d have probably heard the phrase “Push Right, Go Right “ to initiate a turn. That’s where counter steering comes in to begin the whole progression of calculus-based physics that describes how a two-wheeled cycle goes around a corner.
For a typical motorcycle, going at normal road speeds, that “Push “ is only a couple of pounds of force; because a bicycle weighs 1/200 as a moto, the force needed is correspondingly small; grams, literally; and so fleeting as to get lost in the noise of tactile feedback of riding a bicycle.

On a moto, even after it’s become second nature, you still have to make those distinct inputs in order to “steer” the bike; on a bicycle, though, those inputs are nigh-on imperceptible, unless you’re really railing it; and then you still have to be aware of it.

PeteHski

Agreed, it’s a very poor analogy. Your post nailed it.

In UK motor racing we use the term “opposite lock” for car corrective steering input when the rear starts to slide out. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the dynamics of bicycle/motorbike countersteer to initiate a turn.

bruce19

As a former MSF Instructor I'd say this is a good description for 2-wheel inline vehicles.

chaadster

Now we’re getting somewhere!

The rub here was posted way back up in reply #8; it’s not always a different technique between car and bike/moto. Put a bike/moto in a drift, and countersteering is done for the same reason it’s done in a car.

Ergo my point about semantics being the source of the confusion, and maybe if countersteering is just how a bike needs to be steered (at least above a certain speed), it should be called something other than countersteering.

Even though steering a boat with a tiller always requires countersteering- i.e. the tiller is turned opposite the direction of the turn— it’s not called countersteering, it’s just steering, because that’s how it has to work.

It strikes me as tidier to accept countersteering is just how bikes/motos have to be steered and to save the countersteering term for when it’s an actual technique addressing a handling situation, such as in a rear wheel skid-out or drift. That would harmonize the meaning of the term with the automotive world.

I know that’s not going to happen, but some form of distinction would save a lot of the silly misunderstandings that occur whenever the discussion is had.

PeteHski

The difference with 2-wheeled bikes is that most people don't realise that turns are initiated by initially turning the bars in the opposite direction to the turn (counter-steer) simply because it is unintuitive. Just calling it "steering" is not very useful in explaining how the process actually works.

55murray

I'm curious if I am cheating the countersteering rule when I turn my bike in this fashion: I'm riding my little cruiser which has about 90% of the weight on the back wheel. I'm in a left turn, and to turn to the right I take the front wheel off the ground, and while leaning the other way I turn the wheel right and when it contacts the ground I'm now in a right turn.

msu2001la

To be clear, post #8 was intended to be tongue in cheek - I (wrongly) assumed people discussing this topic understood that counter-steering to control a drift or power-slide on a motorcycle was different than counter-steering to initiate a balanced turn (on a motorcycle or bicycle).

chaadster

Yes, true, and I don’t suggest using circular reasoning to explain it either.

Ironfish653

The main source of confusion is that we're using the single term "Countersteering" to describe two different techniques, done for different reasons, at different times, between cars and two -wheel cycles. You've got the automotive version, also known in motorsport as "Opposite Lock" down solid, although it really doesn't apply to cycles, except, as you mentioned, a skid or drift situation; which very few cyclists, and road going motorcyclists encounter; so again, trying to describe the handling of a two-wheel cycle, using "car" as your reference.

One of the main differences between cars and cycles going around a turn, is that where a cars center of gravity is always between it's wheels, its very hard to roll over during a turn (on flat, dry pavement, without some outside interference)
A cycle (moto or velo) has to lean to the inside of a turn, to keep from turning over to the high -side (outside of the turn). Cyclists believe this is accomplished by simply shifting ones weight; motorcyclists know that it takes a distinct input to the bars to initiate the turn: Push Right, Turn Right; actually steers the front wheel to the left, and now the CG is to the right of the wheel track, so the bike starts to fall to the right. Cycles, particularly motorcycles, want to stand up and go straight. You actually have to steer against that, in order to hold the line on a sustained turn. Go in to a long, fast turn like a cloverleaf ramp, and you'll realize that you're having to hold that pressure against the inside grip, to keep the bike going around the turn. Basically you have to steer against the force trying to throw you off the outside of the corner.
Riding a motorcycle, you notice this much more, because while the forces and inputs involved aren't dramatically high, they are hundreds of times higher than what's required to affect a similar change in direction on a bicycle.

chaadster

I don't understand the purpose of creating a carve-out by saying few cyclists encounter countersteering as it's used in cars. It does not seem at all rare to me; it happens all the time in MTB, and nearly every kid goes through a skidding phase. And the fixie guys? C'mon...

One Wheel

Countersteer to balance, steer to turn. Both are necessary.

Ironfish653

Because it’s the same word, applied to two different techniques, done at different times, for different reasons.


The Car definition of countersteering, also known as Opposite Lock, or “Backing it in,” or “Getting Crossed Up” is what you do to correct or control a slide, drift, or oversteer condition, where your rear wheel(s) are to the outside of your line through the turn. Essentially, you’re pointing the front wheel(s) in your intended travel direction, because the rest of the vehicle is not.

The Moto/Velo description of countersteering -“Push Right, Go Right,” ie: initiating and controlling a leaning turn, on a two-wheeled, single-track vehicle by applying pressure to the end of the handlebar on the inside of the turn, happens every single time you make a turn above walking speed.

They are not the same thing, and I don’t use the term interchangeably.

pepperbelly

Some are confusing counter steering with steering into a skid.
Counter steering is a small input-very slight pressure on the handlebars.
Steering into a skid is a much larger movement.

chaadster

I think you've gotten confused, because you seemed to understand before that your "car definition" above is also applied when cycling/moto. It's what's pictured upthread in post #8, it's what's shown in the video in post #90, and it's what you said happens in post #89 when you wrote, "You've got the automotive version, also known in motorsport as "Opposite Lock" down solid, although it really doesn't apply to cycles, except, as you mentioned, a skid or drift situation."

Maelochs

How does a steer bicycle?

Ironfish653

Moo.

PeteHski

You appear to be overly distracted with the skidding/sliding/drifting/oversteer process, which is simply not necessary in a discussion about how bicycles steer in an ordinary non-sliding turn.

Ironfish653 was simply pointing out (very clearly) that they are completely different scenarios. The only thing in common is that they both involve a steering input in the opposite direction to the turn (countersteering).

chaadster

No need to move the goal posts to get me to agree with that, as my interest here has always been about the use and meaning of the term countersteering, not in a generic discussion about how bikes steer, particularly not in a single, arbitrarily defined condition.

Judging from your persistent engagement with my posts, it's clear you were "overly distracted," too.

Maelochs

I see this is a poll ... are we to understand that "How a bicycle steers" will be decided by this thread? How exciting!

PeteHski

Sorry if I thought this was a discussion about how bicycles steer. For you it’s obviously all about the word “countersteer”.