iab

When did that happen? During the Desgrange idiocy? While the Italians for some time made their riders fix flats, maybe up to WW2, they certainly could swap bikes if needed.

Racing is about speed, nothing else. Sensible, serviceable and durable have nothing to do with it.

bikemig 

Racing drives bike technology. Change the race rules and manufacturers will adapt. There is no incentive to change the rules as you point out since speed is the goal. That said, one could imagine a different world in which other goals such as dependability were made paramount.

iab

Other than ultra-endurance, when has that been a thing in competition? I mean, sure, if you want competition to be boring, add dependability to it. Competition is about limits, stretching them, not sitting comfortably in them.

And while it's Grant's dream to have that mindset, he himself says the prevalence of that is 1/20,000. If pounding sand is your thing, go for it. But if you have that freedom, don't stop others who don't want to pound sand.

bikemig 

It wouldn't make competition boring; it would be different. Let me try this a different way. We have a human world set up with all sorts of incentives that drive innovation and facilitate behavior. We may need to think about changing some of those incentives if we are to adapt to the anthropocene era. That is, at bottom, at the heart of some of Grant Peterson's claim. Some of the values that our grandparents/great grandparents cared about during the Depression may increasingly matter given the dislocations we face due to climate change and the like. I'm not suggesting any of these changes will occur. I am saying one can imagine a different world where incentives are changed and maybe that wouldn't be a terrible thing.

iab

You cannot force cultural change, it may evolve to the model you state, but on the other hand, it may not. So again, you can pound sand and it may become a thing. Just don't be surprised if it doesn't.

And we will have to agree to disagree about the snooze-fest competition would be. All sports would be like golf. ick.

bikemig 

I never said you could force change although some changes will likely be forced upon us whether we like it or not.

I'm puzzled by what the argument is about. Change incentives and other things will start to adapt and change as well. No one knows where that will lead. The point made by the poster that you criticized which is that if you change TdF rules, you are likely to get different bikes is undoubtedly right. That is unlikely to happen for the reasons you stated (and which I agreed with in my first posting). Whether that is a good thing or not was not my main point even though I suspect we may have to rethink some of our behaviors given other larger changes that are occurring.

Portlandjim

Back when this happened I called Grant to ask him if he had any questions about my racks. He said no, that's it. I've known him since way back, and have even done work for him indirectly. On a fork crown that Tom Ritchey was designing for ​Bridgestone​. ​Grant is a marketing guy, and a pretty good one. Bridgestone was almost completely unknown to the USA bicycle market​ when they came here in the 1980's​, Grant (and his team) made it into a super hip brand. When they pulled the plug on USA sales, I assume sales of bicycles was just too small for such a big company, Grant was out of a job. So he started his own company, carrying on his quirky marketing style developed with Bridgestorne USA. Selling bicycles and parts has always been a difficult business. Barrier to entry is fairly low for bicycles, there are many contract bike factories ready to build what you want, although it does take money to purchase the stock. What is most useful for success is a solid underlying philosophy that can easily be communicated to a large enough group of potential customers. Grant has worked on creating his ideas about what a bicycle should be for many years. It is very different from almost any other bicycle company, based on technology and styling from the past. From my viewpoint, it seems ​that he has a cult. The problem with this has to do with how large this following is, and how willing they are to buy enough product to keep the doors open. ​So far i​t doesn​'​t seem to lead to a​ny​ product​s​ that mainstream bicycle riders will rush out and purchase.

I have been retired from working at a real job for about 13 years. To help me keep out of trouble,​​​​ I set up a ​hobby ​machine shop, and have been making reproduction vintage bike parts. From my experience​ in trying to sell these parts​, riders who are using vintage bicycles as their main ride are mostly interested in not spending money. All this talk about not wanting modern bikes or parts is very difficult for me to hear. I spent my career designing, building and testing state of the art bicycles. The design objective has always been, to obtain the most useful work from the rider. Efficiency, period. In pursuing this, there will never be a final product. Of course marketing needs to happen! ​Lessons learned can be shared on more modestly priced bicycle models. Which sell in quantities that allow the company to thrive and continue to strive for the pinnacle.

I have ridden quite a few bikes in my life​ of bicycles​. The one I like best is my Tarmac SL7. OK, it costs a lot, and is almost impossible to purchase. But, if you are really interested in feeling what a state of the art bike rides like, endeavor to ride one. Not everyone needs this kind of bike, I'm old and slow, but I need all the help I can get!


​Jim Merz​

Atlas Shrugged

Well written and aligns with my perspective. I understand the beauty of a well made bike with top tier components in vintage style. Its the compulsive need to deride new tech and self congratulatory remarks where the debates begin. For most of us we grew up on these vintage bikes and still remember the limitations and are amazed every day on how far bike tech has come.

Schlafen

We can 3D print whatever we want now.

My prediction is that alot of people on here will stop riding, way before the world runs out of old, sub par bicycle parts, for one reason or another but mainly because they'll be too vintage themselves.

Also, freewheels are dogs#it, good riddance, ha.

Portlandjim

3D printing is not going to solve making inexpensive vintage bike parts anytime soon. The first problem, one needs to make a computer model of the part. Some parts are simple, and would not take a CAD designer long to create. More complex parts can be time consuming even for an expert. It's unlikely an amateur, who would also have to have the CAD software, could do this without a long learning curve. The next problem is this fabrication method requires expensive machines and raw material to make strong metal parts. Most hobby machines make plastic parts that ​have low strength. Also the finish and dimensional tolerance tends to be lower than can be achieved with traditional fabrication methods. Bicycle parts that fail during use can cause injury or death, testing is a good idea.

Cane Creek is selling a E-MTB bike crankset made using 3D printing, called Electric Wings. I saw a set, it looks great. So it is possible to make bike parts this way, but it's not going to be cheap.



Jim Merz

brianmcg123

Thats basically what the Trans-Am bike race is and all the other ultra endurance self supported races are. You see a lot different bikes for sure.

merziac

I meant no disrespect and probably should have approached Grant when it happened, like I said, funny guy as we all know.

I met him at Revelo a couple of times and he was good as he was at those in a more casual role, great stuff.

merziac

So this was actually you?

steelbikeguy

wandering a bit off topic... I'm guessing that these are hollow, and that 3D printing is a convenient/useful way to make a hollow crank arm??

No idea how practical or marketable it is, but it's an interesting approach towards creating a hollow structure that avoids some issues with other methods of creating a hollow structure. I'm thinking of the problems I've heard about with Shimano's cranks that have two halves glued together.

Steve in Peoria

mhespenheide 

Yes. There's a relatively famous story of Eugene Christophe using a blacksmith's forge to repair his own fork during the Tour: https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2...the-1913-tour/. He's the same Christophe of the toe strap fame, by the way.

More recently, NORBA mountain bike racing started out by requiring that racers had to do their own repairs and complete their race on the bike they started the race on. That changed when the UCI got involved, which did not endear them to many of the "old guard" mountain bike racers of the time, who felt it went against the adventure and self-sufficiency ethos of the earlier races.

mhespenheide 

It's not practical. It's just cool. And some buyers are willing to pay for that (literally and metaphorically). Amongst modern components, even Cane Creek is upfront about the fact that it's not really a "better" crank than the aluminum or carbon options.

Schlafen

You can literally 3D scan a part with your iPhone and send it to one of the 100's of companies out there that can print your 3D file, you don't have to do everything yourself, fella.
Your result will ony be as goood as the file/scan you create. If you want to use CAD that's up to you and your result will most likely be better, I'm just saying that this option has been available for years now and it will only get better and cheaper.

iab

That's my point. You can't change sporting incentives. For 3,000 years it has been about the biggest, fastest, farthest, highest, etc. Change that, sports dies. Just that simple. So the idea of bike racing not being about the fastest is ludicrous. "Change incentives" so bike racing isn't about the fastest, bike racing goes the way of the buggy whip.

Atlas Shrugged

Really, you don’t have a clue! Your going to lecture someone who has spent their life designing and manufacturing bicycle components from scratch. There is a lot more to this than reading a Popular Mechanics article. Try something simple like a brake pad holder and tell me how that goes for you.

cudak888 

No need to be crass. Both you and Jim have valid points.

Steel 3D printing isn't cheap nor that accessible right now, and it doesn't necessarily work for all parts (e.g., the brake holders Atlas Shrugged mentioned). However, I can get some really nice parts printed in stainless by Shapeways - within the mechanical limitations of 3D printing - if I want to pay through the nose.

Granted, I am pretty competent in Cinema4D and decent in Blender, and can create fairly accurate models with them, while not everyone has that ability. 3D scanning is getting there, but it can't create a really clean set of polygons...yet. On the flip side, those who do know how to make 3D models from scratch (rather than scanning) and have a suitable workflow for printing in steel could be poised to become independent parts suppliers. However, I haven't seen subcontracted steel printing become affordable enough to allow this to become widespread.

However, I can 100% see this method being used right now by one person to replace a difficult-to-get small part, if they have the skills and are determined enough. Campagnolo Victory upper pivot bolt stops, for instance. Such a part is well within my ability to model and Shapeways' ability to print. But it is too costly to be practical. I could model one, have an expensive test made via Shapeways, verify it works, and then eventually put it up on my Shapeways store for the community, but it'd be $10-20 more than anyone would pay + I'd probably have hours of time into something not worth the effort.

-Kurt

Portlandjim

[QUOTE=merziac;22954178]So this was actually you?

No, the crown I worked on was for a road bike. I don't have a drawing or photo of it. Tom was designing it for Bridgestone USA. He asked me to make a computer model of his sketch, which I did. So, I didn't directly work for Bridgestone. I don't know if they ever used it or not. Jim

iab

$22.47. 316 stainless. Just sayin.

https://craftcloud3d.com/

Portlandjim

3D printing used to break the hour record. Story here: https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/...is-3d-printed/

Jim Merz

Atlas Shrugged

If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you in London.

John E

We are having a parallel discussion on Passatworld.com, regarding continuing parts and service availability for the beloved B5 generation (1996-2001) Audi A4s and A6s and VW Passats. People who (mistakenly and naively) rely on dealerships for parts or service are getting cut off at the 20-year mark. When a friend experienced this phenomenon with her Vanagon, I told her to see my local VW/Audi independent shop. I am not yet too worried, because I have superb VCDS scanning software from Ross-Tech and the other tools and knowledge needed to do my own diagnostics and light repairs, and my indie shop that does the heavy lifting (literally) lets me bring in my own parts, but a few parts, particularly plastics like coolant expansion tanks and windscreen washer fluid tanks, are getting scarce. My next car will likely be electric, and I am very concerned about issues such as right to repair.