Another Peloton clobbered by pickup truck, in AZ. 2 dead so far.
02-28-23, 10:50 AM
#101
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What speed would you suggest passing motorists slow down to in the passing lane in order to pass a cyclist in adjacent lanes on the highway?
02-28-23, 10:53 AM
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Somehow I hadn't noticed from earlier photos, but that video makes it clear that there was a median strip in that bridge that was 2 lanes wide. So wide that the vehicle approach had to be diverted to make it wider.
The bridge could have had a protected bike lane built that was a full lane wide. Of course that doesn't help much if it is only 1/4 mile of protected lane with the rest of the road varying in narrow shoulders to no shoulders, and cyclists choosing to not ride on the shoulders.
The video does also show a cyclist riding on the sidewalk across the bridge (which would have been my choice), but that sidewalk has very bad access points.
The bridge could have had a protected bike lane built that was a full lane wide. Of course that doesn't help much if it is only 1/4 mile of protected lane with the rest of the road varying in narrow shoulders to no shoulders, and cyclists choosing to not ride on the shoulders.
The video does also show a cyclist riding on the sidewalk across the bridge (which would have been my choice), but that sidewalk has very bad access points.
02-28-23, 11:14 AM
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The Super Duty pictured is not vintage. It's a current generation model based on the headlight design. Current gen Super Duty trucks come standard with AdvanceTrac, Roll Stability Control, and Trailer Sway Control. Is it possible in the loosest definition of the word that all three of those features failed? Sure. Is it probable? No.
That seems to be within the age range that is covered by the complaints.
If there was a steering problem, it is quite possible that the driver already knew about it and had been ignoring prior symptoms.
The speed shimmies show up is also often very specific for a vehicle, and often over 50 MPH (which is above the posted speed limit).
It looks to me like the steering and suspension of that vehicle may be mostly intact after the accident. It could be evaluated at a shop. And, if the hood is removed, the vehicle could well be test driven.
02-28-23, 12:04 PM
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aluminum shell that they use crumples easily now too.
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02-28-23, 12:14 PM
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When a vehicle not under effective driver control crosses the entire width of the roadway from the left lane to scrape a barrier off the right side, it makes not a bit of difference where you were riding - getting hit or not is down to random luck of if that full-width-sweeping diagonal did or did not intersect your forward / backwards position.
You're revealing yourself to be dangerously ignorant of the most fundamental basics of how to ride a bicycle in traffic.
The Fahy Memorial Bridge is a critical crossing which has signs reminding drivers of bicycle usage - in fact it has shared lane markings painted on the surface in the center of the right lane itself as well as the center of the only lane on those of its approach ramps which have but one.
And that's because it's long been known that if someone is going to ride there or in any other confined space that lacks width for in-lane passing, occupying a full lane is the only viable way to do it.
There is nowhere for a bicyclist to be that is out of the way of drivers - the only way it works is for the drivers to patiently wait and change lanes to pass them.
You're revealing yourself to be dangerously ignorant of the most fundamental basics of how to ride a bicycle in traffic.
The Fahy Memorial Bridge is a critical crossing which has signs reminding drivers of bicycle usage - in fact it has shared lane markings painted on the surface in the center of the right lane itself as well as the center of the only lane on those of its approach ramps which have but one.
And that's because it's long been known that if someone is going to ride there or in any other confined space that lacks width for in-lane passing, occupying a full lane is the only viable way to do it.
There is nowhere for a bicyclist to be that is out of the way of drivers - the only way it works is for the drivers to patiently wait and change lanes to pass them.
I just happen to agree with the Delaware Bridge Authority requiring cyclists to walk across. I hate that regulation but I walk.
You are ignorant. There was no line of sight and there was no time for the motorist to slow. I know the bridge. Driven it a few times and once or twice on a bike..... on the pedestrian path in such conditions.
Of course, you are right. Dead Right.
02-28-23, 12:22 PM
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One generation back. 2017 to 2022.
That seems to be within the age range that is covered by the complaints.
If there was a steering problem, it is quite possible that the driver already knew about it and had been ignoring prior symptoms.
The speed shimmies show up is also often very specific for a vehicle, and often over 50 MPH (which is above the posted speed limit).
It looks to me like the steering and suspension of that vehicle may be mostly intact after the accident. It could be evaluated at a shop. And, if the hood is removed, the vehicle could well be test driven.
That seems to be within the age range that is covered by the complaints.
If there was a steering problem, it is quite possible that the driver already knew about it and had been ignoring prior symptoms.
The speed shimmies show up is also often very specific for a vehicle, and often over 50 MPH (which is above the posted speed limit).
It looks to me like the steering and suspension of that vehicle may be mostly intact after the accident. It could be evaluated at a shop. And, if the hood is removed, the vehicle could well be test driven.
Maybe the defendant is lying. He stopped immediately and did stay and he was crying. Police say it was not intentional. One of the videos online shows a car stopped at the accident scene with a hood pushed in, it was either an ES350 or 530i looking from the side. I suspect there is more to this tragic, horrific crash than meets the eye. It seems pretty clear the riders were single file riding right as much as possible. Just awful.
02-28-23, 12:26 PM
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Ask the deceased cyclists if they care.
My response that you quoted was directed at a member suggesting that riding 10 abreast would make them more visible. The point of my response was just what you stated - not necessarily. Just a wider target nearly impossible to avoid if seen last second.
02-28-23, 12:33 PM
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Nope - all actually aware cyclists and traffic planners understand it's the only survivable choice when there isn't other space.
And then the state DOT or else the city put up signs and painted sharrows centered in the lane to educate everyone about that reality.
The only actual danger comes from exactly what you are doing - perpetuating the entirely false idea that the bridge is unavailable to cyclists, or that those riding it should adopt a position which gives drivers the slightest idea that they can pass without changing lanes, such that drivers are free to drive without considering the possibility of cyclists or correctly responding to their actual presence.
Here's that police department had to say about it:
Even if you're going to suppose that the bus jostled their passengers by aggressively changing lanes like a race car, suddenly revealing the cyclist at only say one and a half times its own substantial length, that would still require the collision car driver to have been unsafely tailgating the bus to begin with, and then thinking they'd pass it on the right. (Worth remembering, you're not supposed to pass on the right)
More likely, the 17 year old driver of the collision car was acting like a 17 year old.
They certainly attempted to evade subsequent responsibility like one.
And then the state DOT or else the city put up signs and painted sharrows centered in the lane to educate everyone about that reality.
The only actual danger comes from exactly what you are doing - perpetuating the entirely false idea that the bridge is unavailable to cyclists, or that those riding it should adopt a position which gives drivers the slightest idea that they can pass without changing lanes, such that drivers are free to drive without considering the possibility of cyclists or correctly responding to their actual presence.
Here's that police department had to say about it:
The lanes on the north bound side of the Fahy Bridge are each 10 feet in width. The lanes were reduced in size due to structural problems with the existing walkway. PennDOT created a secondary walkway and bicycles are not permitted to use this area. The cyclist was in the proper lane position due to the lane width. In a narrow lane, the cyclist is permitted, and is actually safer, by taking the entire lane. A motorist has plenty of room to pass the cyclist in the left lane. Had the cyclist been in the right portion of the lane and been struck by the car, he would most likely have suffered far worse injuries because of being pushed into the concrete barrier. Before you make insensitive comments, regardless of how you personally feel about the right of cyclists to use the roadway, remember that it is another human being and no one deserves to be struck by a car and left in the roadway.
There was no line of sight and there was no time for the motorist to slow.
Even if you're going to suppose that the bus jostled their passengers by aggressively changing lanes like a race car, suddenly revealing the cyclist at only say one and a half times its own substantial length, that would still require the collision car driver to have been unsafely tailgating the bus to begin with, and then thinking they'd pass it on the right. (Worth remembering, you're not supposed to pass on the right)
More likely, the 17 year old driver of the collision car was acting like a 17 year old.
They certainly attempted to evade subsequent responsibility like one.
Last edited by UniChris; 02-28-23 at 01:11 PM.
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02-28-23, 02:10 PM
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Nope - all actually aware cyclists and traffic planners understand it's the only survivable choice when there isn't other space.
And then the state DOT or else the city put up signs and painted sharrows centered in the lane to educate everyone about that reality.
The only actual danger comes from exactly what you are doing - perpetuating the entirely false idea that the bridge is unavailable to cyclists, or that those riding it should adopt a position which gives drivers the slightest idea that they can pass without changing lanes, such that drivers are free to drive without considering the possibility of cyclists or correctly responding to their actual presence.
Here's that police department had to say about it:
And then the state DOT or else the city put up signs and painted sharrows centered in the lane to educate everyone about that reality.
The only actual danger comes from exactly what you are doing - perpetuating the entirely false idea that the bridge is unavailable to cyclists, or that those riding it should adopt a position which gives drivers the slightest idea that they can pass without changing lanes, such that drivers are free to drive without considering the possibility of cyclists or correctly responding to their actual presence.
Here's that police department had to say about it:
Take the segregated footbath across that bridge.
Take another bridge.
The bridge is available, it just is not as safe as walking across. That is the law where I live on those ancient, narrow bridges.
02-28-23, 02:14 PM
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Take another bridge.
If your answer is "walk across" then you are perpetuating the car brained problem of seeing bikes as toys rather than transport.
Cycling is only safe when cycling is seen as legitimate.
It has been ruled to be so on that bridge which means that the danger is precisely from reactionary anti-bike attitudes of the sort you are pushing.
What a key local/commuting route like Bethlehem's Fahy bridge needs is even more people riding it so that everyone comes to recognize that the presence of cyclists as routine, proper, and expected as that of any other wheeled conveyance allowed to be there.
Last edited by UniChris; 02-28-23 at 02:40 PM.
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02-28-23, 03:09 PM
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If the passing motorist is in an adjacent lane and giving the cyclists adequate clearance WHY should he remember to slow down to pass, make the pass slowly and make the pass take longer, and be in the passing lane that much longer?
What speed would you suggest passing motorists slow down to in the passing lane in order to pass a cyclist in adjacent lanes on the highway?
What speed would you suggest passing motorists slow down to in the passing lane in order to pass a cyclist in adjacent lanes on the highway?
If passing in an opposing lane, get it over with as soon as practical, same as you would a car or truck.
If passing in an inner same direction lane, allow a minimum of 3 feet separation with a passing speed of 10mph (difference). Greater speed is fine with more separation.
The key is to adjust speed down if/when separation is limited.
This isn't a new or unique idea. Many states require either a 1 lane separation or reduced speed when passing stopped emergency vehicles.
We all need to keep in mind that moving two wheeled vehicles may suddenly fail to hold line for any number of reasons.
Increasing separation reduces the chances of collision, while reducing speed reduces the consequences.
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02-28-23, 03:45 PM
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Since you asked for a specific suggedtion....
If passing in an opposing lane, get it over with as soon as practical, same as you would a car or truck.
If passing in an inner same direction lane, allow a minimum of 3 feet separation with a passing speed of 10mph (difference). Greater speed is fine with more separation.
The key is to adjust speed down if/when separation is limited.
This isn't a new or unique idea. Many states require either a 1 lane separation or reduced speed when passing stopped emergency vehicles.
We all need to keep in mind that moving two wheeled vehicles may suddenly fail to hold line for any number of reasons.
Increasing separation reduces the chances of collision, while reducing speed reduces the consequences.
If passing in an opposing lane, get it over with as soon as practical, same as you would a car or truck.
If passing in an inner same direction lane, allow a minimum of 3 feet separation with a passing speed of 10mph (difference). Greater speed is fine with more separation.
The key is to adjust speed down if/when separation is limited.
This isn't a new or unique idea. Many states require either a 1 lane separation or reduced speed when passing stopped emergency vehicles.
We all need to keep in mind that moving two wheeled vehicles may suddenly fail to hold line for any number of reasons.
Increasing separation reduces the chances of collision, while reducing speed reduces the consequences.
As far as the law regarding passing stopped emergency vehicles, do you really think that is applicable to passing cyclists in traveling in another lane or on the shoulder?
02-28-23, 03:54 PM
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Legally? Of course not. But. It makes sense as a practical guide. As I implied earlier, passing moving bicycles calls for minimum separation allowing for the possibility of a sudden swerve, ie. because of a side wind gust. This is s far greater likelihood than a cop tripping and falling into the lane, so should call for at least similar separation.
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02-28-23, 07:47 PM
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That's some straight-talking truth right there.
DD
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02-28-23, 08:45 PM
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Cycling roadways will never be "safe" if humans are involved and/or slow moving vehicles share travel lanes with high speed traffic. All we (road cyclists) can do is deny the problem and ride, ignore the problem and ride, understand the problem and ride anyway with due caution, or don't ride.
02-28-23, 09:32 PM
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Cycling roadways will never be "safe" if drivers in motorized vehicles don't smarten up.
02-28-23, 09:52 PM
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Legally? Of course not. But. It makes sense as a practical guide. As I implied earlier, passing moving bicycles calls for minimum separation allowing for the possibility of a sudden swerve, ie. because of a side wind gust. This is s far greater likelihood than a cop tripping and falling into the lane, so should call for at least similar separation.
Are you now suggesting that motorists passing in the next lane from moving adult cyclists with adequate separation should slow down anyway because of the "likelihood" of cyclists' inability to stay within their lane due to tripping, wind, falling or some other sort of mishap. If so, how slow should motorists go when anywhere in the presence of cyclists?
02-28-23, 09:57 PM
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I wonder how this correlates to the size of the average motor vehicle increasing. I remember back in the 1960s and 1970s many luxury cars were darned wide. Most were low to the ground as compared to modern passenger trucks and SUVs. It just seems like the vehicles keep getting larger but the width of highway travel lanes has stayed the same.
02-28-23, 10:50 PM
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.... Adequate separation was a given in the posted scenario that you answered.
Are you now suggesting that motorists passing in the next lane from moving adult cyclists with adequate separation should slow down anyway because of the "likelihood" of cyclists' inability to stay within their lane due to tripping, wind, falling or some other sort of mishap. If so, how slow should motorists go when anywhere in the presence of cyclists?
.... Adequate separation was a given in the posted scenario that you answered.
Are you now suggesting that motorists passing in the next lane from moving adult cyclists with adequate separation should slow down anyway because of the "likelihood" of cyclists' inability to stay within their lane due to tripping, wind, falling or some other sort of mishap. If so, how slow should motorists go when anywhere in the presence of cyclists?
I stated my opinion clearly in post #111, and you seemed to grasp the gist. However, you continue to try to shade it, and raise strawman arguments.
So, I'll pass on the bait and not bother answering that. I refer you back to #111, where I was pretty clear.
Others are free to read my words, and/or those you try to stuff into my mouth, and draw their own conclusions.
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02-28-23, 11:08 PM
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Crumpling is supposed to reduce collision forces. Does the F250/F350 use aluminum body panels, or just the F150?
That actually looks like much less damage than the Kalamazoo bike wreck, and the impact on a much older pickup.
Human bodies and vehicles aren't supposed to occupy the same space at a high speed differential.
Arizona:
Kalamazoo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_bicycle_crash
In Kalamazoo, Charles Pickett Jr. was sentenced to 40 to 75 years in prison which will likely be the rest of his life.
That actually looks like much less damage than the Kalamazoo bike wreck, and the impact on a much older pickup.
Human bodies and vehicles aren't supposed to occupy the same space at a high speed differential.
Arizona:
Kalamazoo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_bicycle_crash
In Kalamazoo, Charles Pickett Jr. was sentenced to 40 to 75 years in prison which will likely be the rest of his life.
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02-28-23, 11:36 PM
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When a vehicle not under effective driver control crosses the entire width of the roadway from the left lane to scrape a barrier off the right side, it makes not a bit of difference where you were riding - getting hit or not is down to random luck of if that full-width-sweeping diagonal did or did not intersect your forward / backwards position.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...ident-97504853
Authorities say the driver was 26-year-old Pedro Quintana-Lujan.
He said the driver told officers he was headed to work with materials he picked up for a job.
A charging document released by police Monday says Quintana-Lujan told officers he was driving in the left of two northbound lanes when his steering locked and he drifted into the vacant right lane, then into the adjacent bike lane where he heard “a sound similar to metal.”
The document said the driver told officers “he let off the gas and regained steering control, then turned left and stopped in the middle of the bridge."
It said reconstruction of the collision determined when Quintana entered the bike lane he also struck the concrete barrier that separates the roadway from a sidewalk, leaving black tire marks halfway up the wall and striking several cyclists.
The department was waiting for results of a blood test acquired with a warrant that would show whether the driver was impaired. Quintana-Lujan told officer he shared a marijuana cigarette the night before, according to the document.
Quintana-Lujan was booked into Maricopa County Jail on Sunday on suspicion of two counts of manslaughter, three counts of aggravated assault, 18 counts of endangerment and two counts of causing serious injury or death by a moving violation.
He is scheduled to appear in Superior Court on March 3.
He said the driver told officers he was headed to work with materials he picked up for a job.
A charging document released by police Monday says Quintana-Lujan told officers he was driving in the left of two northbound lanes when his steering locked and he drifted into the vacant right lane, then into the adjacent bike lane where he heard “a sound similar to metal.”
The document said the driver told officers “he let off the gas and regained steering control, then turned left and stopped in the middle of the bridge."
It said reconstruction of the collision determined when Quintana entered the bike lane he also struck the concrete barrier that separates the roadway from a sidewalk, leaving black tire marks halfway up the wall and striking several cyclists.
The department was waiting for results of a blood test acquired with a warrant that would show whether the driver was impaired. Quintana-Lujan told officer he shared a marijuana cigarette the night before, according to the document.
Quintana-Lujan was booked into Maricopa County Jail on Sunday on suspicion of two counts of manslaughter, three counts of aggravated assault, 18 counts of endangerment and two counts of causing serious injury or death by a moving violation.
He is scheduled to appear in Superior Court on March 3.
An officer on the scene reported that the steering rack of the truck was intact, all bolts and nuts appeared to be secured, and all of the major frame elements of the vehicle were in place with no damage.
According to a booking statement from police, Quintana-Lujan claimed that his steering had locked and his vehicle began drifting to the right. He allegedly let off the gas when he heard a metallic sound, and regained steering before turning left and stopping in the middle of the bridge.
Police said he struck the barrier wall on the side of the bridge and traveled for roughly 520 feet before finally coming to a stop. Documents show that he'd only braked for the final 87 feet.
There were "no signs on scene of any evasive action taken after striking the jersey barrier with no braking, tire marks, gouges, or skidding from the vehicle to show an attempt to avoid more hazards," according to the report.
Quintana-Lujan didn't show signs of impairment immediately after the crash but reportedly told police that he'd shared marijuana with his wife around 11 hours before the crash.
According to a booking statement from police, Quintana-Lujan claimed that his steering had locked and his vehicle began drifting to the right. He allegedly let off the gas when he heard a metallic sound, and regained steering before turning left and stopping in the middle of the bridge.
Police said he struck the barrier wall on the side of the bridge and traveled for roughly 520 feet before finally coming to a stop. Documents show that he'd only braked for the final 87 feet.
There were "no signs on scene of any evasive action taken after striking the jersey barrier with no braking, tire marks, gouges, or skidding from the vehicle to show an attempt to avoid more hazards," according to the report.
Quintana-Lujan didn't show signs of impairment immediately after the crash but reportedly told police that he'd shared marijuana with his wife around 11 hours before the crash.
He likely has had that steering issue in the past, many times to have a response of letting off on the gas.
It looks to me that he hit many of the cyclists on the right side of the vehicle, and on the right mirror. So primarily hitting them after he had gotten off of the jersey barrier.
The cyclists may have had a second or so to react when they should have heard the noise behind them, but there would have been no place to hide.
Some Twitter photos... mostly the same we've seen before.
That drifting to the right and slow braking response sounds to me more like falling asleep, or perhaps distracted driving rather than a mechanical failure with an alert driver.
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02-28-23, 11:36 PM
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^^^^^
That Chevy is way lower and was going way faster I think.
One granny lady in the Cotton crash flew up and landed on the bridge, only getting a concussion. Must have been near the front.
That Chevy is way lower and was going way faster I think.
One granny lady in the Cotton crash flew up and landed on the bridge, only getting a concussion. Must have been near the front.
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 03-01-23 at 09:33 AM.
02-28-23, 11:42 PM
#124
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Since you asked for a specific suggedtion....
If passing in an opposing lane, get it over with as soon as practical, same as you would a car or truck.
If passing in an inner same direction lane, allow a minimum of 3 feet separation with a passing speed of 10mph (difference). Greater speed is fine with more separation.
The key is to adjust speed down if/when separation is limited.
This isn't a new or unique idea.
If passing in an opposing lane, get it over with as soon as practical, same as you would a car or truck.
If passing in an inner same direction lane, allow a minimum of 3 feet separation with a passing speed of 10mph (difference). Greater speed is fine with more separation.
The key is to adjust speed down if/when separation is limited.
This isn't a new or unique idea.
You didn't stop there but added several references to factoids that throw shade on the clarity and gist of your previous suggestion. Hence my asking you to clear up the confusion.
Many states require either a 1 lane separation or reduced speed when passing stopped emergency vehicles.
We all need to keep in mind that moving two wheeled vehicles may suddenly fail to hold line for any number of reasons.
Increasing separation reduces the chances of collision, while reducing speed reduces the consequences.
We all need to keep in mind that moving two wheeled vehicles may suddenly fail to hold line for any number of reasons.
Increasing separation reduces the chances of collision, while reducing speed reduces the consequences.
Two wheel vehicles may be unable to hold a line? Increasing separation reduces the chances of collision, while reducing speed reduces the consequences? This raises the question of how much more separation, how much more speed reduction do you expect from motorists when passing? Such vague statements about reducing chances of collision or its severity lead to a conclusion that the safest passing maneuver is to never pass a bicycle (or a motorcycle for that matter).
02-28-23, 11:54 PM
#125
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Correct, you were pretty clear with the first half of your reply and I agree with it.
You didn't stop there but added several references to factoids that throw shade on the clarity and gist of your previous suggestion. Hence my asking you to clear up the confusion.
.
You didn't stop there but added several references to factoids that throw shade on the clarity and gist of your previous suggestion. Hence my asking you to clear up the confusion.
.
OTOH- if some other person here on BF has a question about what I mean, I'll clarify.
BTW- I believe that it would be much more constructive if/when you had something constructive to add, you simply posted that, rather than micro-parsing the posts of others. Of course, that's just me, so feel free to do as you will.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 02-28-23 at 11:58 PM.
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