3alarmer 

...I have, at times, experienced hand issues with longer rides or daily riding for touring. Nothing ruins a trip like hand or wrist pain. So besides gel padding as an underwrap, corked tape, and gel padded gloves, I habitually move my hands around a lot, to different positions on the bar. Why do you think I'm "letting go of the bar", when I specifically mentioned one handed double shifts, to accommodate the shift pattern for a half step setup ?

When I learned all this bicycle stuff, it was not uncommon to release the bar entirely, if you had smooth pavement in front of you, and to ride upright for a time "no hands", to relieve some of the discomfort of long stretches in a drop bar position. Stretch some things that have been tensed for a while, take the weight off your hands...things like that. Do people really no longer do that ?

I'm happy you can do simultaneous shifts. I'm sure you're happy I can do them, too. As I said already, I find it much more convenient and comfortable to drop one hand to the DT, from wherever it happens to be on the bar, than to return both hands to the hoods to accomplish the same operation. It's only one example, and there's really no need to make a fuss over it. And FWIW, the double shift requires much less practice to accomplish, once you move on in the tech to some sort of indexing, like the mid/late 80's Shimano stuff.

I'd be the first one to state that once you get past about 6 cog spacing in the rear, I have trouble hitting shifts precisely using friction. I have to look down sometimes in those situations, to trim. Partly that is because I have a lot of different bicycles, most of them set up a little differently with regard to gearing and shifting. AS stated earlier, all of them shift better than getting off and changing the chain over by hand...which I have also done a few times.

Surely this whole thread is another tempest in a teapot ?

3alarmer 

...thank you for the praise. It's rare I get any praise from your direction. Even if DT double shifts are not really a big deal, I appreciate the compliment.

3alarmer 

tomato coupe

My statement had nothing to do with you. But, if you want to take it as praise, I won't burst your bubble.

3alarmer 

...like DT friction shifting, some people need to start out with baby steps.

rydabent

Going back to friction shifters would be like getting rid of starters on a car and going back to the "simple" hand crank.

HTupolev

Nah, that's the one thing that downtube shifters are pretty good at, since the ergonomic cost of double-shifting isn't much different from that of single-shifting.

Quickly getting through a large compensatory rear shift isn't something that most people do very well on indexed trigger shifters either, though. Even if you know how many shifts you need ahead of time, lots of folks can't flutter a single-shift lever very rapidly, or reliably hit exactly the right number of pawls on a multi-shift lever in a super-fast motion. It's easy to be precise by taking your time, but in the case of both systems, that's more disruptive to pedaling. (For both systems, compensating for an overshoot also isn't a very big deal.)

Where this maybe looks different is if we're not just talking about shift levers, but entire vintage versus modern drivetrains. Chains and sprockets and derailleurs hugely impact the smoothness, consistency, and positivity of shifting.
I don't think there's any real difference in ease-of-use between my friction-shifted drivetrains with modern chains and Hyperglide clusters versus my indexed drivetrains with the same, but both of them work considerably cleaner than my '70s Motobecane with its original freewheel.

Maelochs

Y'all are ridiculous ... in a funny way.

I learned to shift on friction shifter and used nothing else for about 30 years .... Anyone who thinks any aspect of friction shifting is easier is ridiculous.

I got Very good with friction shifters ... not bragging, simply stating fact. Tens of thousands of commuter and sport miles will do that for you. I took pride in making very fast, very precise shifts, coordinating pedals and levers perfectly to wrap just enough chain to be able get back on the power in the new gear.

With STIs I can and should and always try to shift very cleanly ... but I can shift under full load and never worry about where the chain will end up.

" ... lots of folks can't flutter a single-shift lever very rapidly, or reliably hit exactly the right number of pawls on a multi-shift lever in a super-fast motion." Yeah ... show me the data. I can hit an STI lever as quickly as I can move, and I can count. It is like playing a saxophone .... hit the button, play the note. With a friction lever it is like playing a trombone .... everything is approximate, there are no actual mechanical stops. If you are trying to say that "approximate" is as precise as "precise" .... well .... whatever.

genejockey 

Or, as I said above, like fretted vs unfretted string instruments, say, a Cello vs a Viola da Gamba.

genejockey 

One great advantage of indexing vs friction is that when you switch from bike to bike, as those of us with a number of bikes do, you don't have to adjust your lever throws. I find the lever throw per gear is not the same from bike to bike, for my friction-shifted bikes. Not so for the indexed ones. *Click* and you're in the next gear.

Eric F 

How does one use a DT shifter without letting go of the handlebar with that hand?

That said, riding with one hand (or no hands) really isn't a big deal for anyone with even modest bike skills. I do it without a thought every time I take a drink from my bottle, turn to see if there is traffic coming behind me, or a number of other reasons.

Again, I'm not telling you that you're wrong, or insisting my way is better. I'm just not quite following the logic of why it's preferable to use DT shifters over STI, but I recognize that my perspective is skewed by how I ride, and that it might be different than how you ride.

smd4

Lighter, more reliable, doesn’t eat cables, less cable friction, can be switched to friction shifting if something gets banged up or otherwise goes out of adjustment and will still function, and aesthetically, at least to me, looks way better than massive skyward-pointing rubber blobs on the bars.

Eric F 

My comment is specifically related to 3alarmer's stated preference for reaching down to DT levers over moving a hand to the hood to shift an STI lever. It's not related to maintenance, durability, adaptability, or subjective aesthetic preferences. As far as I can tell, it's largely to do with the ability to do a dual shift with one hand, which - for me - isn't a concern at all. For 3a, however, it matters...and that's just fine.

Koyote

Shoot, with Di2 in Syncro mode, you can do that with just your right hand while still gripping the bar - either from the hood or the drop.

3alarmer 

...try to picture it in your mind. I have my hands somewhere (not the hoods). I want to shift both front and rear derailleurs.
I can drop one hand to the DT shifters, and accomplish my goal in one movement, then go back to blowing a snot rocket with that hand.

Or I can move both hands to the hoods, and accomplish the goal using both brifters. Because I don't usually ride the hoods, except briefly and intermittently.

Then, I can proceed to blow a snot rocket with one hand or the other, taking it off the bar or brifter. I don't know if the latter easier for you. But the former is easier for me. As for you following my logic, in this particular thread the good ship logic sailed away long ago. I think it pulled away from the dock on the first page, when a bunch of people missed post # 4.


Indexed shifting has been around much longer than the 40 years you proposed in your first post in the thread. Besides all the SA indexed shifting, which works well even today, there were some brief forays into the realm of indexing for derailleurs with Suntour's 1969 entry of a 5 speed click system. It didn't work very well, and did not sell. See Berto's history, p 234 and following. Shimano just had all the pieces come together in the mid 80's, with the advent of ramped chainwheels, rear cog profiles that work better, and a very sophisticated derailleur design that took advantage of computer design programs and the expiration of the Suntour slant parallelogram patent.

If you're genuinely interested in any of this, read Frank Berto's book. If you're not, that's fine, too. But you're bordering on concern trolling with your repeated requests for more explanations. Experience is the best teacher. So if you're curious, find yourself a bike set up with DT shifters and half step gearing, and try riding it for a while. Or don't...you seem to be happy with what and how you ride. Please provide me the same courtesy. If I thought I needed brifters in my own riding, I would have them. I do have a couple of bikes set up with them, and they work fine. But so does everything else I own and ride.


^^^Integrated Shifters

^^^Integrated Shifters (wider range gearing)

^^^Half Step with DT Shifters (indexed)

...

PeteHski

I heard a rumour that Shimano are going to launch a new 12-speed DT friction shift groupset to replace Di2.

Maelochs

This whole post in one sentence: Some people think their preferences are automatically better than others, and can't stop saying so.

The inventiveness in explaining the defensiveness was fairly creative the first time through ... about a decade and a half ago.

3alarmer 

...and with that, we have come full circle. 40 years of technology, resulting in the ability to do something with one hand, that you could do 40 years ago with one hand. I am in awe.

...some people insist on using the phrase "some people" in argument. I don't know why, other than it serves to further confuse discussion.
Here's the dictionary def of "preference". It contains nothing about "better" or even "worse".

I can only imagine what will follow after "some people" find out about the guy with a "preference" for travel by train.

preference /prĕf′ər-əns, prĕf′rəns/

noun

1. The selecting of someone or something over another or others.
   "has a decided preference for travel by train."
2. The right or chance to make a choice.
   "The program offers you the preference to use the mouse or function keys."
3. Someone or something so chosen or preferred: synonym: choice.
   "What are your musical preferences?"

3alarmer 

...I heard a rumor that when the Rapture comes, only people who own and ride Di2 will ascend unto heaven. It's a steep ascent, requiring lots of shifting.

calamarichris

Anyone old enough to remember Gripshift, the scrappy little 80s company that went on to become SRAM?


Once I rode my coach's bike (aluminum Vitus with Modolo plastic downtube shifters) and that bike had a neat auto-shift mechanism. When you stood and pedaled hard enough with poor pedaling form (which I had in spades as a teenager), the small-diameter tubes (which were glued to the lugs) would flex so much, it would pull on the shift cable, which would cause an upshift, and even shift the lever for you.
My coach was a pretty smart guy (with impeccable pedaling form) so in criteriums, he would simply make one firm pedal stroke with poor form and the bike would automatically upshift. Gave him a leg-iup while everyone else is seated and reaching for their downtubes.
He'd simply snug down the tension on the shift lever if it was a hilly race, and of course engage his flawless pedaling form.

He is Mark Fletcher of Esprit Velo Club. A remarkable guy.

gorillimo

But, I play drums, banjo and uke!

3alarmer 

...fretless banjo is a thing.

Camilo

Agree. And some of us know that doing something for fun or a change of pace, or nostalgia is not saying the technology is superior. We can actually enjoy inferior technology in many aspects of our lives.

I wonder if this would be a good thread drift. Inferior technology I actually like messing with. In all cases I prefer the newer/easier technology, but still like the old stuff:

1949 Ford Pickup with non-synchronized transmission (love getting the rhythm of double clutching) vs. my Subarus or modern pickup trucks
Turntable / LPs vs CD, streaming or MP3s
Friction shifters vs indexed vs integrated
Snow shovel vs. snow blower
Push lawnmower vs riding lawn mower (yes, our acre of grass could justify a tractor... actually, I wouldn't prefer a tractor, but for our size yard, it's definitely a better choice for most people.)

I wonder if even the guys who absolutely can't understand why anyone would mess with friction shifters have any inferior or outdated technology they actually enjoy. Hell, on bike forums I have often read about people who hand wash their shorts instead of throwing them in the wash! It works for them, and I get it, but I wouldn't consider it.

rsbob 

Ah ‘resto -mod’ shifters. And when the batteries go south….

I liken DT shifters to a manual transmission in a classic car. Classic car drivers like the feel and aesthetic. Then we have Di2 the ‘automatic’ of bicycle shifters. I have all four (cars and bikes). Each has their own appeal and some work better in certain situations than the other. No one is the right answer as that is up to the individual consumer, or do like I do and have one or more of each.

Outrider1

Hear, hear!