wtunderhill

lacing-up white hubs to hed belgium rims, with dt aerolite spokes. any ideas on good spoke count for training/racing wheels? i'm 148lbs. was thinking 24/28, but considering going lower. thoughts?

Allez3

Stop trying to be cool or a weight weannie. If you aren't going to be going faster than 30 MPH on a regular basis, then buy a bulletproof wheel you don't have to worry about. Go double butted with 32 in the front and 36 in the rear. If you're going over 30 MPH on a regular basis, then you don't need to worry about having wheels built for you.

littlewing6283

im heavier than you. 165 and am going hed c2 rims, white industry hubs 24f28r. cxray spokes. frt 2x and rear 3x.

WonderLake

Or more politely:

Your light, so 24/28 is probably a pretty reasonable balance. You really don't gain much from going to a lower spoke count than that. Certainly you can pay for some expert advice though -> https://www.psimet.com

jamesdak 

Well, I am by no means an "expert" on spokes or wheels but there is more to it than just a count isn't there? I've logged around 5000 miles since starting to seriously bike last spring. I've got 3 different road bikes and 4 different sets of wheels. I was around 230 when I started and am now 180 lbs. All of my miles have been on rough chip sealed roads with lots of cracks and imperfections. I do not know what smooth pavement is.

Out of all my wheels the only ones I've had issues with (one broken spoke/several loose ones/truing) is the 32 spoke pair. This pair is my highest spoke count.

My lowest is the 18 f, 20 r Rolf Vector Comps that are on my LeMond Zurich. This bike has seen the majority of my miles and these low count wheels have been bulletproof despite my own weight and the conditions I ride them in.

My new everyday wheels are a set of Williams System 30s with 20 spokes in front and 24 in back. I have no concerns about these wheels holding up either despite my weight.

I think a lot of factors other than spoke count figure into how a wheel will hold up. I look for strength versus wheel weight so that I can get up the mountains easier. I think any properly built reasonable wheel will hold up your stated weight.

WonderLake

Crappy components built in a crappy way by a crappy builder will always make crappy wheels.

wtunderhill

save your aggro

wtunderhill

cheers. think i'll stay with my intended 24/28

carpediemracing 

A bit late but HED builds those rims as the Bastognes, now apparently called the Ardennes GP, in 18/24H. Nothing wrong with that spoke count - I'd consider the wheel heavy duty for me.

A strong rim doesn't need spokes to make it stronger. A huge change of thought from, say, the 80s to the 90s was that you no longer needed spokes to reinforce a rim - you needed the spokes to place the hub.

So in the old days (32H/36H etc) an unbuilt rim might have supported 80 lbs before it collapsed. I'm thinking of a "heavy duty rim" like a GP4 (box section rim), under an 80 lbs bag of concrete. Even if the rim could hold 80 lbs, it would be severely tested.

However the GP4, once laced up, was incredibly strong. Guys would crash, smash the fork and frame, and the front wheel would be perfectly rideable. I know because I had a crash like that, maybe 25 years ago, and I still have the GP4 wheel with the original spokes, minus one - broke one spoke, never bothered replacing it because the wheel was solid as a 31 spoke wheel.

Then came aero wheels and specifically aero rims. Zipp made the first ones I really knew about, although Aerospokes (I think - they made carbon bars, posts, and rims) made them too. The early Zipp rims were strong enough to support something like 300-400 lbs (their data, not mine). So you needed very few spokes in the wheel, just enough to hold the hub in place. The initial version of the Zipp 440s (their 58mm rim) were sold in 16 hole drill. Campy's Shamals (aluminum aero rims) were sold in 12H. And, trust me, you could really, really hammer on those wheels without breaking them. You might bend them a bit at the braking surface, but they would stay relatively straight. I hit a pothole at about 45 mph while using 16H versions of the Shamals (Ventos). I flatted both tires (pumped to about 120 psi), bent the sidewalls of both rims. My 180-190 lbs teammate wanted the wheels, I gave them to him, and he rode them for about 10 years (after straightening out the sidewalls). He was my leadout man, and he led me out a few times while using those wheels.

The limiter in spoke count is the strength of the rim BETWEEN spokes. If the rim bends between spokes, you need more spokes. If the rim gets tweaked but it's still basically straight (like you fold a bit of the clincher bead so the brakes thunk but the wheel is still pretty straight) then you either have few enough spokes or you can go fewer. Old wheels, like the GP4s, would bend between spokes (well the sidewalls would bulge at the spoke hole but that's different). You could realistically run a 24H GP4 all the time. If you ran a "light" rim (280g vs 400+g for the GP4) then you probably needed 28H. I know a 24H 280g rim wasn't that strong, but a 28H version of the same rim, that was pretty strong.

Nowadays a "light" rim is as heavy or heavier than a GP4. One company told me they discontinued a nice 285g rim because too may people were bending them in inappropriate conditions (dirt roads, 'cross, etc) and then complaining. They stuck with a 350 and 400g rim - the 350g rim was bombproof. Once you deal with a very strong rim (i.e. 400g or more), spoke count is less important.

So... with the Ardennes. The rims may not be as strong as, say, a 400 lbs supporting aero rim. But the 18H front wheel I have feel incredibly rigid. It's very strong. I've hit things hard enough to move my bars, potholes in crits typically. Other riders have bent or broken things on the same potholes.

As 148 lbs you can go to the minimum in spoke count if you have rims which are designed for low spoke count. HED, like most companies, will overdesign their wheels for liability reasons. They have to consider a klutzy 190 lbs rider when setting a 190 lbs limit. Even a slightly skilled 148 lbs rider will be able to get away with the 18/24H setup HED sells. I'd imagine that a 16/20 (like a Reynolds DV46) would be a bit more edgy.

As far as "not worrying about it", it's true, at some level you just have to ride. But that's no fun. If I was looking at wheels, maybe in the HED line, I'd carefully see if there are differences in the rims (not really). Then I'd check spoke drillings. Then I'd buy the best value low spoke count wheel. I bought the Bastognes. The Ardennes had the same count, but the other wheels had 24/28, which, to me, seemed like a solid wall of stainless steel. It's fun to choose what to build, build it, and see how it comes out.

halfspeed

Why stop there? How about 48 spoke tandem wheels?

SBH1973

At 148 lbs, you can easily ride on a 20/24 wheelset. And why not? This is a hobby, and if lightening your bike (being a weight weenie) makes you happy, go for it. But 32/36 is just overkill for your weight, and 24/28 is still conservative. I upgraded recently to a set of 38mm carbon tubulars. Do I need an 1180 gram wheelset? No. Are the comfortable and did they make me faster. Yep. Am I enjoying them? Sure am.

Do what you want and don't let someone suggest you're just trying to be "cool" because you want a lighter wheelset that's entirely appropriate for your weight.

banerjek

I'm 140 lbs and have been very happy with 20/24 for years. I also run that configuration on my commuter which sports a rack and panniers and gets ridden in all conditions.

I don't think that chasing silly low spoke counts is a good idea, but 32 spokes is total overkill for your application. May as well mount 700/32 tires while you're at it.

achoo

I started riding on my Neuvation M28s at probably 230-240 lbs on my way down to 200+. I put probably 6,000 miles or so on that 16-spoke front wheel before the pinned rim joint worked its way just loose enough for the clicking to annoy me enough to sell it. Other than that, it never gave me any trouble and was as true the day I sold it as it was when I got it.

Obviously, rim strength makes a difference, and I think Neuvation's M28s are Kinlin XR-300s (or very similar), so yep, 20 is easily enough spokes for a 148 lb rider for all but the noodliest rims.

Allez3

He's not ridding a tandem so 36 spokes are enough. 40-48 is used on a tandem for structural stability because of the lateral forces generated by the two riders and the length of the frame, mainly on the rear wheel. The problem with a 24/28 is the structural integrity of a handbuilt wheel.

WhyFi

42.

Drew Eckhardt 

Because of what happens when you put a slight bend in an alloy rim and unload a spoke (or break one if the wheel builder didn't do their job, although that's avoidable).

With high enough spoke counts you open your brake release and keep riding. Campagnolo users don't even need to take their hands off the brake hoods.

With low enough spoke counts you call for a ride home.

Some where in between you pull the wheel back into shape with your spoke wrench.

urbanknight

He's not a clydesdale so 28 spokes are plenty. The problem with going below 28 is that you have to be very accurate with spoke tension, as well as the problem of walking home IF you break a spoke.


I'm hoping you meant the brake release. Riding on an open quick release skewer would be pretty dumb.

Drew Eckhardt 

Right.

halfspeed

How do you determine that 36 spokes is "enough" and that the structural integrity of 24/28 wheels is insufficient?

gusmanchu

I have 24 / 20 on my Rovals and 32/34 on my Hed Aero wheel and way 175. I have no problems with either riding on pretty good pavement most of the time.

mmac

I'm guessing that the user feels this way because they don't understand the concept of "Road Cycling" -vs- other forms of cycling, and consider the idea of a catastrophic accident causing any damage to your wheels as unbearable.

There's also people here who try not to crash, or may consider touring with 80 lbs on a different bike. I hooked my stepfather up with my touring bike, he weighs 350 and can go down the road just fine on a 32 with 35mm tires, the idea of needing a 36 is just silly.

Edit: Looking at his post I also assume that he doesn't understand the concept of checking spoke tension or the importance of knowing how much you weigh. Your wheelbuilder probably has the necessary tools and skills to build up a lighter wheel.

https://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-TM-1.../dp/B000OZDIGY

halfspeed

I am my wheel builder.

I'm just trying to determine on what he is basing a strongly held opinion that is entirely at odds with my experience. There are certainly better wheel builders and more experienced cyclists than me, but if he's just going on about something from a Rivendell article, I know how to treat the opinion.

Soil_Sampler

you'll be okay.

halfspeed

I think with modern higher profile rims, this isn't as much an issue as it once was. It just so happens that I've recently had two different pre-built 24 spoke rear wheels with defects leaving them running one spoke short. In both cases I was able to ride home without even opening my brakes. I'm done with letting anyone else build wheels for me, but I got home OK.

urbanknight

You're right. Not really the profile, but the rim's individual strength (although profile plays a part), determines how well it can hold its shape when a spoke or three break. Of course, you have little to worry about if the spokes are tensioned properly in the first place... which is why I love handbuilt wheels so much... and obviously one of the things you appreciate yourself.