Andy_K 

It's been exactly two weeks since I claimed to have my N+1 habit under control. Of course, I think as soon as I put it in writing everyone knew what that would mean. I saw an ad yesterday, and today this came home with me.



The chrome seems like it'll polish up very nicely. The paint has some scratches, but as you can see it's in great shape overall. The guy I bought it from seems to have actually been riding it -- all the bearings are smooth, the chain is clean, and the tires were low on air but not completely flat. I'm not a single speed guy, nor a mustache bar guy, so I won't be leaving the bike like this, but I'm actually thinking about swapping in a smaller chainring and riding it to work like this once or twice just for the experience.

Now's the part of my post where I ask the experts on this forum for information. I thought that since it's a Raleigh it would have a well-known serial number format that would tell me the year it was made. Alas, as @gugie advised me, the one thing you can count on with vintage Raleighs is that you can't count on anything.



This is not an unknown format, but the few mentions of it that I found were ambiguous. For example, the Sheldon Brown page on determining the age of a Raleigh says, "There are several documented cases of '73 and '74 Professionals, Internationals, Competitions and RRAs with "A" serial numbers. Let the color scheme, decals and components be your guide." OK, so I don't have the original components -- how do the color scheme and decals on this one guide me?

Also, I see a 'T' at the bottom of the downtube, an 'E' (or maybe 'F') on the NDS part of the bottom bracket, and an infinity symbol by the drive-side chainstay. Do those mean anything?

bikingshearer 

Since you've gone fixie and won't be needing that RD hanger any more, are you going to hacksaw it off? (Kidding. I'm kidding. You know better and so do I.)

I am no expert, but this is pretty much what Raleigh Pro frames looked like when I first got into this hobby in 1973. That fastback seat stay style was around only for a limited number of years, if I recall correctly, so that should narrow it down. 1973 is definitely in that range. And while that color combo was iconic for some years, at least in the US, the number and placement of the stripes on the seat tube may have varied. My best advice - and it is worth exactly what you are paying for it - is to see if you can find catalogs on line to narrow down the date range.

That and wait for the real experts to chime in in 5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . . 2 . . . .

Oh, nice score and nice frame. But you knew that, too.

steelbikeguy

It'll be interesting to see/hear what can be deciphered from the serial number and other markings.

In the meantime, it looks like a nice bike and the simple things like the seat stays and decal fonts say that it is early to mid 70's. If it was earlier, it would have the script "Raleigh" on the downtube (like my '71 International had), and if it was later, it would be a Mark V with the more conventional seat stay attachment at the seat lug.

I've spent too much of my youth staring at the Raleigh catalog to not be just a bit envious... but I've got other bikes that fill that same niche. I hope it brings you much joy!

Steve in Peoria

nlerner

Nice find! Peter Kohler’s article on the Raleigh Pro is required reading if you haven’t found it already:

https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/20...p-raleigh.html

A = 1973, according to that ref.

3alarmer 

.
...the A serial number Raleigh Pro's have always been mysterious to me. I have one here, and for a long time I thought it to be from a different year than it turned out to be. I try not to worry about it, which works well for me .

Pcampeau

As far as I can tell, it’s a late 1973 build for the 74 model year. 1974 began the W serial numbers Nobody should ever give absolutes when it comes to Raleigh but early 1973 frames still had fender eyelets and no CC cutouts on the bottom bracket shell. Eyelets seem to have disappeared from the Pro sometime in 73. 1973 serial numbers are most commonly “A” but there are also some “Hs”. CC cutouts were a new introduction for the 74 model year so I’m of the opinion that this is an autumn of 73 Pro intended for the new 74 catalog year.

It wouldn’t surprise me if some frames don’t perfectly fit with anything I think is right! Lol

I’ve got a 72 MK4 and a 78 MK5, both are excellent in my opinion. Congratulations on a wonderful find!

roadcrankr

My '73 Pro stamped with A4720 and no bottom bracket shell cut-outs. And mine has eyelets.

Insidious C. 

Congrats! The silver 74 Pro I recently got from Dylansbob is sn A9682. I assume mine is slightly yonger than yours, Andy. I found some info on these "A" serial numbers but ATM don't recal where I saw it.

**edit: nlerner already linked the s/n info that I was thinking of. So maybe your blue Pro is a late 73?**

Lascauxcaveman 

It's definitely one of those years. Or a '72. Or maybe a '75. Or possibly something else around that time.

Hope this helps. ​​​​​​​

RustyJames 

Yay! Of course you bought it…

if the bars don’t work for you I know a guy that might be interested.

Andy_K 

Hey now! It's got a freewheel.

Full disclosure, I have ridden a fixie before. I even tried a cyclocross race on a fixie (I don't recommend it). I'm much better now though.

And, of interest to this group, this particular single speed is using Campy Nuovo Record hubs and a Suntour Superbe Pro track crankset. Not your everyday hipster creation.

Andy_K 

Yeah, that kind of feels like the way the evidence is trending. I've got a Raleigh Competition which came with almost all original components that definitively matched the 1969 catalog Competition and only the 1969 catalog Competition. The serial number says it was built in 1967. So, I should have seen this coming.

Andy_K 

There is a very good chance I won't use the bars long term. I tried similar bars (Soma Sparrow) once before and really tried to find a configuration that would make me happy. None did.

Kabuki12

Nice find. I have a feeling this may end up as a ten speed or at least try it that way at least once. I doesn’t take that long to build them up once you have the parts. As far as dating , I’m no expert but I have a few Raleigh’s and two of them get ridden frequently. One is a 1977 Competition GS and the other is a 1978 Raleigh Pro . They are easier to nail down date wise than the earlier bikes. You mentioned an infinity symbol stamped on your bike. On my 1977 Competition there is an infinity symbol stamped on the top of the BB shell . I asked on this forum and the CR list and got no response. Until now I never heard of it. Anyway congrats and enjoy the ride, mine rides very nicely.

My ‘78 Raleigh Pro came to me in a very “patina” state

Schreck83 

This.
Peter Kohler's site gives an excellent overview of the changes that happened to the Pro around 1973-74. In addition to the CC cutout and fender eyelets, the curvature of the fork (and rake) and the indentation of chainstays for tire clearance are two other physical features to pay attention to. Your fork looks like the swoopy version with the longer rake that Peter documents in the section on Mark IV Professionals. There's a FB group dedicated to Raleigh Professional and team replica bikes and one of the British members had some insight to geometry changes that were going on around this time, but I'll be darned if I can find anything more than a week old on that platform.

I can't tell whether your frame has indented chainstays from your photos.

The serial numbers were in flux here, which led me to start this thread on 1973 SNs:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...rs-please.html
I think the A SN's are more commonly reported than H SN's, but these were still boom times....

Also, this thread, which is referenced in my thread, starts with a frame that is perhaps only slightly newer than yours; it has an early W format SN, CC cutout, no eyelets but retains the fork with the large rake:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...anomalies.html

gugie 

And to think Andy contacted me to try and talk him down.

Andy_K 

My chainstays are not indented, though I may further muddy the historical record by changing that.

I wonder if several of these features varied at overlapping intervals. So, for example, there may be Pros with the CC cutout and indented stays but not the extra fork rake, and so on. You seem to be suggesting a similar sort of overlap with the change in serial numbers in your thread.

merziac

mpetry912 

this is absolutely the case. the idea that the models changed over with a bang on 1 January of a given year is pretty naive. Parts in stock were used up, subassemblies hung on the shop wall until used, etc.

These bikes were hand-made in the era before "precision" became a thing.

/markp

Andy_K 

I hadn't even thought about this in terms of the production process. I was just imagining Raleigh did essentially random things, but now that you've said it it should have been obvious to me that the rear triangle and the fork, for instance, would have likely been made at different times. I've heard that small builders still to this day will build a bunch of rear triangles and have them ready as an improvement to process efficiency. Going back to Raleigh I wonder when the serial number got stamped? I know some manufacturers stamp the serial number on the frame and the fork, so I would guess that it might be the final step before paint.

mpetry912 

Exactly ! this is why we cannot put 100% confidence into the date of manufacture except if the date is in the first two digits (or otherwise encoded) in the serial number.

As you say the stays or other components may have been built significantly earlier than the final assembly of the frame. And even in Campagnolo parts I do not believe that the variations in the components can be mapped to an exact date. They used up the pieces that were in the parts bin.

/markp

RiddleOfSteel

How long are those crank arms? Superbe Pro cranks were always so pretty.

USAZorro

I'm pretty sure serial # correlates to the date the frame was "finished". 1973 seemed to be the year when volume exploded for Raleigh/Carlton at Worksop. I believe they blew through all 9999 H-coded serials pretty early on, and decided to roll over to 'A'. I suspect this experience led to the WX###### format that we see in 1974. Whether or not THAT stated on 1/1/74...

nlerner

I’m guessing you tried reverse psychology: “There’s no way you need an iconic British bike in your size!”

USAZorro

I tell myself that bikes with fastback stays will ride like the Trek 760 I briefly had (which didn't suit me). So far it has worked.