RChung

You don't have to control for differences if you can account for them. That's what statistical controls do.

Eric F 

It seems to me that the human variables would be the most challenging to control or account for.

Maelochs

No effort was made to control or account for any variables here. There were no "scientific experiments." This is some guy who had a point to make, or an opinion to express, and he did it.

3alarmer 

Koyote

Careful. You might incite the scold brigade with all of your negativity.

livedarklions

I've quoted the challenge you actually posted. His point was that the experiment was so transparently bad that this was just another steel vs. carbon thread. Why would he need to produce more scientifically credible tests to support that? You've got one of a hell of a non sequitur in there-if there aren't any credible experiments, that doesn't imply that the subject isn't played out.

Sorry, but if you were actually interested in a reasonable discussion, you should have acknowledged the problems with the op and then asked politely if anyone knew of a better approach to studying the iRChung is on this thread, probably the most patient and knowledgeable person about testing on the forums. I know he's always been generous answering my uninformed questions.

livedarklions

Pretty sure that's the second time you claimed to have put me on your ignore list.


Oh well, I still have my groupies.

Eric F 

Understood and agreed.

livedarklions

I think this is a claim that just gets less and less plausible. There's never been an era with more variety in styles of bikes available. Racing style bikes are such a small segment of the market that this is a classic tail wagging dog perspective.

70sSanO

No one really cares about that stuff. If you want to peel everything away, this thread is really about familiarity and a reluctance to change. The diamond frame has been around for a century, so it's not like there has been a total revamp of the design.

People who grow up only using aluminum and carbon fiber frames, disc brakes, and 1x systems will start a thread years from now complaining about the latest scam changes that threaten their perspective of how things should be. And they wil get the same response. Each generation holds onto things way too close.

Because at the end of the day, you still have to pedal to get where you are going, (e-bikes excepted but then mateiral is probably moot but I digress). Frame material and components don't change the sunlight filtering throuigh the trees or the wind on your face, climate change does...lol!

John

unterhausen

Let me introduce you to Unterhausen's law of cognitive bias: tell me what your desired outcome is and I will convince you it's true. My proof is the article cited in the OP.

I got something on my mouse scroll wheel somehow and it's not working too well. So I'm not going to try to read through the thread for fear that I will wear out my scrolling finger or hurt myself when I fall asleep reading the same nonsense over and over. I see a lot of arguing past each other in this thread, which is probably the only way it could still be going pages later. Let's recall the forum rule against direct insults -- even if the insult is true. Also, if it's not a direct insult, don't bother reporting it because we already have enough report threads about posts in this one that go like this: "Meh" "Meh" "Meh" "Meh"

Eric F 

Hmmm...Interesting to ponder that. Is the popularity of gravel bikes driving the increase in gravel racing, or is the increased interest in gravel racing driving the popularity of gravel bikes? I don't have an answer. I just find it an interesting topic of discussion. It seems you can find someone racing most bike styles, somewhere.

In related news...It seems to be the nature of the male version of the human species that they will race anything that has wheels.

Maelochs

I like both running rivers and white-water rafting and kayaking. I have never has the urge to prove myself against ever-harder rapids, or to ride waterfalls and such .... but I have run some stuff which was pretty exciting.

I have done some of those "turn yourself inside out" bike rides, where you try to keep up with the fast guys to the point that every moment of the ride is a battle not to slow down. Some people live for that, but I didn't like it so I don't do it anymore.

Racing doesn't hurt cycling any more than pro soccer hurts all the other soccer programs, and in fact the popularity of pro soccer spawned all those youth and school and local leagues. Pro softball stops amateur and sport softball, or pro pool leagues have caused every neighborhood pool hall to close. Pro tennis, many years back, led to a surge in popularity which led to public courts being considered a normal sight.

The people who paddle for adrenaline or whatever, will always seek harder runs. People who like to go fast will always try to push harder .... go look at the thread about people's changing attitudes toward cycling and see that some old guys are still trying to go faster even while their bodies decay. Others like to tool around the neighborhood at seven miles per hour every evening.Other people will always prefer to load a cooler and a camera and paddle lazily along flat water.

Yeah ... the "bike industry" which encompasses everything from sporting goods chains to boutique custom frame builders, still builds beach cruisers and cheap big-box bikes and fake racing and MTB bikes and real racing and MTBs, and everything in between and some stuff beyond.

Shoot, there is still a market for a whole variety of 'bents and trikes. I don't see those guys racing on TV or getting endorsement deals.

And racing Barbie jeeps hasn't sopped sales of normal Barbie jeeps.

All these "Big Bike " conspiracy threads are a screaming joke.

Yes, bike manufacturers want to make money and they want to promote the highest-profit products .... no one thinks it is a conspiracy when auto makers pay to have SUVs in all the popular movies and TV shows. And the funniest part is ... there is an actual "conspiracy" which includes the government, big oil, and city planning, which keeps everyone car-dependent .... but we are all worried that alien lizard-people are forcing us to buy evil, soulless, demon-clone bicycles.

Go anywhere where anything is sold, and your only options are what people choose to sell. Not many US supermarkets sell English chutney or any of the popular Dutch or Danish brands, and very few sell anything authentically Asian or South American. I cannot think of every seeing a store selling live insects for human consumption despite a large portion of the world's population eating bugs.

Are all these conspiracies?

Broctoon

Someone once told me this:

Everything invented before we were born is accepted and taken for granted; we think it always existed. Anything invented from the time we're born to about 35 years old is a good idea, and we're going to figure out how to make money with it. Everything invented after our 35th year is from the devil!

Eric F 

I see this play out regularly when the topic is music - "today's music sucks!" No. It's not the music that excited you during an influential time in your life.

70sSanO

Paul Simon summed it up pretty well, "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."

I've carried that verse along for a lot of years and have found it to be true more often than not.

John

RChung

Well, we can already measure mass, power output, position, and sometimes changes in position can be either controlled or identified. This helps make the analysis a lot easier.

seypat

There's definitely a modern big bike conspiracy out there. I see plenty of really large supersized vintage steel frames posted in C & V. Never see any supersized modern CF frames though. Hmmmmm!

Koyote

Went through this when my (then teenaged) daughter was into K-Pop. You can guess what I thought of it. After we'd gone back and forth on her tastes vs mine, I told her, "This is just how it's supposed to be: my parents thought my music sucked, I think your music sucks, and one day you might have kids -- and you'll think their music sucks. It's one of those circles of life."

(Added content: after she'd asked me to watch some K-Pop videos, which seem to exclusively feature boys/young men who dance while lipsyncing, I had her watch . this. Her eyes got a bit wide when she saw people playing actual instruments.

Eric F 

I agree 100%. We can go to any era of music over the last few generations and find music that lacked talent, but a ton of people liked it. I mean, "Who Let The Dogs Out" won a Grammy, fer cryin' out loud. Popularity isn't necessarily an indicator of talented musicianship, only that it excites people emotionally, in some way.

I have 2 daughters (youngest is 18), and heard my full share of music that I disliked. Thankfully, my younger daughter (who I spent a crap-load of time in the car with for her 8 years of travel softball), not only took a liking to the guitar-driven alt/grunge rock I was influenced by, but also introduced me to a lot of new alt music that I enjoy. Currently, we've both been exploring singer-songwriters with a country tilt, and my own interests have lead me to some of the outstanding musicians in the bluegrass category.

EDIT: As a mediocre musician with some live playing experience, and a recording rig set up in part of my garage, humans playing actual instruments was never foreign to my girls. My older one dabbled with singing a for a while, and one of my most awesome dad-moments was her stepping in to sing with my band at a backyard party. My younger kid poked around with the guitar and drums a bit. Unfortunately, neither really jumped all-in with music.

70sSanO

While I'm sure this will not be very well received, the first thing I thought of when I saw that video was the irony of dead musicians paying tribute to a dead musician.

John

Maelochs

Hey, we need a scold post because you guys are Waaaay off topic and if I don't want to read about KPop or "Who let the Dogs Out" then I shouldn't have to read those things in this thread .... why can't those KPoppers just ignore this thread?

Eric F 

If my neighbor is the one who lets his dogs out, will I be able to out-run them better on a steel or carbon bike?

There...back on topic. You're welcome.

seypat

There's always another version out there of a dead musician doing a cover of some other dead musician's song.......and doing it justice.

amazinmets73

The funny thing is I don't think these innovations lack value. I just think they make cycling too expensive and complicated. If I had an unlimited budget they'd be fine.