Doge

I have to imagine you are pretty fit. I've been reading, since I know so little, about max thingy heights (40cm), % of course not ride-able (10%), tire width, gear head stuff. I'm amazed how much to learn, but this was about you...
Why not train on the tactical/technical stuff. Bunny hops mounting/dismounting etc.

rideaz

I'm going to do my first cross race next month. I thought I would get to be Cat 5 again but I checked out the USAC website and am still confused. It looks like I can register as the same Road category but I don't think I'd want to jump into a Cat 1 CX race for my first time.

Ttoc6

All those rules are there (they're all called barriers, btw) but good luck finding a race promoter that follows those rules. Part of it is subjective (do we measure the barrier in the middle, at the bottom of the rut, after the grass is plowed down.....) and part of it is just impossible to enforce (sometimes all course design aside, it's faster to just run a section of, say, sand) . I'll say it again #usackillscross

Doge

Ha - I could say that about a lot of USAC stuff. How do they kill cross?

Ttoc6

Little bit of rambling below, but too tired to edit it into cohesion.Main point is I just want the sport to remain pure at the low level. High level competitive is a different beast. Grassroots is going to cause the sport to grow and cross (where I've raced) exemplifies that.

Going back to the discussion about cross getting people out. By imposing all the crazy rules on the lower level fields it just makes people not want to come out and race. The beauty of Cross in my eyes is you can have the whole family out there. Mom/Dad who is a competitive racer. The other jumps in beginners category or something low. The kids get to hang out with other friends at the park and then ride their bikes around.

Take a look at some of the writing Steve Tilford (RIP) wrote about cross rules regarding the 80% of the race time. And I think he wrote about (but can't find now) nationals a few years back in Texas and how USAC just completely screwed over the junior fields that were left to race. If my memory serves me correct they combined M/W 13-14 and pulled all the women as soon as they were about to get lapped. Leaving 1 girl to take the championship because she lasted just a little bit longer.

Ever since watching USAC try to put on cross races, the local non-sanctioned stuff is much more enjoyable. People that you never see on bikes come out and enjoy the sport. Drink beer on a Saturday or Sunday in a park and have a grand time in the mud. As soon as people have to shell out 40$ to race BEFORE a usac liscense, they don't show up anymore.

I watched a 2 days UCI series race a couple years back. I did the USAC cat 4 division which had a field size of about 10, normally the cat 4 field on a non-sanctioned weekend was pulling 50+. The UCI race was extremly well put on for the pros. High level officials, proper call ups, good course marking. The USAC race felt expensive for what I was getting and a side thought. The sanctioning provides nothing over a race promoter making it their own.

aaronmcd

Cross looks kinda fun. I like riding off road and hopping stuff. But I also don't wanna spend the effort and money of new bike plus figuring how to start lol.

rankin116

USAC doesn't kill cross, the promoters in your area do. Around here, all of the things that you say are good about cross are happening, all with USAC involved. Going to a UCI race and having a grass roots environment is never going to happen. Races are $25 here, $10 for juniors, and we have a thriving junior and beginner M and W fields.

topflightpro

There's a lot of misconception about what USAC does with races, and it is mostly from those who have never promoted a race.

For example, I hear complaints all the time about where USAC put nationals. USAC doesn't put it anywhere. Promoters put in bids to host, and USAC selects the best one. In some cases, there was only one bid to choose from.

In Austin, that was an issue that was handled poorly by the local promoter and USAC. The promoter failed to address local issues before hand. The city came in and shut the event down. USAC did what it could to make things happen, but no one was going to be happy. Yeah, maybe USAC shouldn't have awarded nationals to that promoter, but it's not like USAC could have known what was going to happen. Also, the promoter held a cross race on the same course a year prior with no issue. It wasn't until they had 4 days of cross on there that the tree people freaked out.

I'm not absolving USAC of a lot of issues that it creates, but too often, USAC is blamed for failings of the local promoter.

Doge

Thank you. That was more clear than most of my writing.

There are race designations / categories that address how serious a race is. Category E/F/G - grass roots, don't expect so much, Category A expect rules to be followed and UCI (several levels). Collegiate cx nats say UCI and Category E - so I have to read what that means. I think it means the barriers will not be over 40cm high.

There is recreation and then there is competition. It is a sliding scale between them where at one end it is families and kids having fun in the park with no rules, just an understanding of what is fair and at the other people doing their sport as a job and using rules and ability to make money. The race categories often align. There are always going to be pick-up games and Tues night Worlds, with participants as good as any. But that is recreation.

When you look at the top "feeder" layer and pros in, I'd guess any sport, there is a lot of travel and money being spent by someone. Traveling competitors need adherence to written rules, and should expect them. What equipment to bring and how high those barriers are they have to jump. I have been, and am "that guy" that reports this stuff, especially as it relates to the category of race. I think USAC is pretty open to these kinda reports and the several times I've brought things up they have dealt with it. Would I report barrier height in a Category E cx - likely not, unless a safety thing with nails sticking out. Would I report it in a Category A and UCI - I'll be out there with my tape measure the day before. Shoot, I'd even bring the cordless circular saw to help out. So I'm basically saying - it depends.

I have no doubt that you can find officials lecturing kids about wrinkled numbers at all levels.

tetonrider

I looked at the rules the other day (in your response to my post) and do not see anywhere in the current rules that say you cannot downgrade more than one category at a time.

As said above, just explain it.

If you start winning races in the 3s, you upgrade. NBD.

My guess is that it will take a little while to build the skills to win some of those races. The value of those skills is really high in CX racing.

Also, feel free just to skip those races that you said require no technical skills -- or sandbag a bit and make sure you cross the line in 10th, not 1st.

You have a reasonable story for why you should not be a 1 in CX; USAC -- and any decent regional coordinator -- realizes that the category on one's license should not be an impediment to race. Also, if you DO win a few races this year, "tearing you a new one" is NOT something anyone should do, let alone a regional coordinator. Once it becomes apparent you should move up, move up.

tetonrider

A couple thoughts:
In many areas, USAC is irrelevant in Cross. In fact, that was true in your area, but then some folks started begging for USAC sanctions because they felt disadvantaged when they went to Nationals. Same for the NorCal area -- with Nationals in Reno, many local promoters heard riders clamoring for USAC points. Seems like it will be the minority who actually attend Nationals much less be competitive there, but so be it.

If I'm not mistaken, rules are VERY lenient for beginning racers. It's been a long time since I looked it up, but it used to be that designated beginner races could be pretty much on any equipment, even MTBs.

rubiksoval

Thanks!

topflightpro

I think one can race cross on a MTB in any category, so long as it does not have bar ends. I remember seeing one guy on a FS 29er riding over the barriers - not bunny hoping them, but popping the front wheel up, rolling over then popping the rear wheel up...

Also, cross skills are hugely important to doing well. I recently jumped in a cross race. It's been three years since my last race and a year since I even tried dismounts/remounts. I didn't even practice them during warm ups. Well, my dismounts were so slow, and my running sucked so much. I was passing guys on the bike, only to be passed at the barriers, just to pass them again once we started moving on the bike.

tetonrider

technically this isn't true--certainly not for USAC. part of the issue is bars pointing out to the sides.

i've seen some people pull this stuff in non-USAC races (e.g. a fat bike when a course was covered with deep snow). it was definitely against the spirit of the rules, but they took advantage of a promoter (non-USAC) not caring and generated some ill-will against fellow racers. in those cases, the promoter came out the following week and specifically named those pieces of equipment that were used to win the prior week could not be used.

was the racer technically in the right? sure. it was also obvious to everyone that it was underhanded when those racers showed up on the line.

sometimes an amateur win means more to someone than respect from their peers.

by the time you are racing the more advanced categories, it's pretty well-understood that people *should* at least take a stab at the right equipment (forget MTB vs cross bike -- it would be easy to ride 40 or 45c tires, but just because one can doesn't mean one should).



it's amazing to watch someone who is truly amazing at barriers. if you just watch their upper body it is non-trivial to detect when they're on the bike vs off. humbling!

Ttoc6

Think you got your quotes mixed up there .

But on the topic of barriers, I watched Jonathan page at the local cx race today. His barrier technique is a it different (old school). I've got the video on insta story I'll see if I can save and get it posted.

Doge

That is why I'm doing (buying) 33mm max width tires (UCI) vs 35mm max are, I'm told, allowed for collegiate. I would prefer the rules were the same, UCI, USAC, Collegiate. But they are not.

Still, I have no issue with any rider reading and exploiting rules. That is what they should do IMO and part of "the game". I think it is the job of the authority (USAC) to have simple rules and the job of the rider, or manager, to read them.

tetonrider

Yeah--I use 32-33c tires (make sure they *measure* 33c--it's the measurement that counts, not what is printed on the sidewall; this is rarely an issue for tubulars due to the construction) but rarely do USAC races, much less ones that actually enforce the rule.

IMO there is full-on cheating (rare) and then there is the stuff that is just not cool. The latter is like defining pornography: it can be hard to put in words but you know it when you see it.

Removing a rear brake for a non-USAC hill climb? Sure!
Riding 35c tires in a grassroots CX race because that's what you use on your gravel bike? Cool.
Riding a hardtail MTB in that grassroots CX race because that is all you own and you want to participate. Good.
Snow the day before, you're the series leader in the A race (non-USAC), and you show up with 4-5" wide tires that float vs everyone else on ~33c tires? Not so much.

There actually is a meaningful difference in racing 34s or 35s vs 32/33s, let alone 38-40s or larger, esp with rougher courses.

Doge

I understand all that, as does Daniel. Few things compare to requiring one group of riders to ride different gears than the other in the same race. Adults didn't block their gears to match the juniors restrictions. That set a switch in my mind that fairness and USAC are unrelated.
Personally - I like my kid having a USAC legal bike from Strava to real racing. UCI legal is way more complex and varies by who is the judge. that is why there are 2 hour waits the night before a TT with judges checking bikes. A UCI judge on the count down decided that electrical tape holding the Garmin on was not allowed - ~30sec cost we figure. OK - them's the rules, although I think he was wrong, but hard to protest at 4-3-2... It is pretty clear to me at some level - do the rules and forget what is cool or not. I don't think any rider exploiting the rules is un-cool. I think the rule makers and enforcers are uncool not doing their jobs.

tetonrider

yes i did. sorry!

Psimet2001 

USA Cycling does have simple equipment rules....there really aren't any.

You can run what you brung until it's UCI. Then UCI rules apply. UCI rules are specific and spelled out.

I am a solid advocate that following the UCI equipment rules for cross is imperative for any rider that wants to take the sport seriously and from say an arbitrary cat 3 level on up.

I have seen CX Magazine advocate for the use of wider tires for anyone except UCI. I personally feel that one should always adhere to the spirit of the discipline if not a true beginner with gear limitations.

Race 33's.

And yes to the "measure 33's". "Do they check? Yes. Every single pro C1, C2 and world cup pit I have been in has had officials check every single wheel on bike and off bike as well as every rider as they stage. When they first changed it back to 33 from 34 i saw a lot of wheels get pulled out of the pits by officials.

Doge

Do you know if that 33 is over the widest parts of rubber (a knob) or the case and at any PSI?

Guess I have to read the UCI stuff, but I bet it is mostly a road bike.

My experience with UCI judges is it / they vary just like everything else. Had bikes pass pre-check to have issues at the start countdown.

Doge

BTW - found a great used bike and THREE wheels sets for starting out. In the middle of the trx and shipping now, but going to be a good deal.
Two of the wheels are tubular and alloy and inexpensive, so junior can miss a few barrier jumps.

In my 20s I'd always jump the railroad tracks. One time I was lacking speed came down on the corner of the rail with my back wheel. I was on tubulars ~100PSI, but the rim did not like that.

Psimet2001 

They use a drop gauge. It is a piece of nylon channel that is 33 mm in width. They push it over the tire. If it doesn't fit you must acquit....the wheel from being able to be used in the race.

There's no trickery involved. It's 33 or it's not.

tetonrider

It's an excellent point, and I know you bring it up frequently. Anyone who is not a junior is unlikely to think much about this.

My suspicion is the premise is "protect juniors' knees" >> "have juniors win sprints against adults."

We could argue about whether or not gear restrictions is the right way to go about this, but that seems to be the priority.

Do you find that riding junior gears *materially* affected placing of your boy in races? Like finishing 25th instead of 3rd? I wonder how much the restriction really costs junior riders.

I'm not disputing that it is unfair, merely wondering if junior gears pushed your boy from 1st to 3rd or if it was from 2nd to 35th. I coach hockey, and as it happens we had a meeting tonight with the parents; we talked about how the things that matter most to us do NOT include winning. That's not to say we are only about participation but, rather, that there's plenty of time later on where winning is THE priority.


My point was about more casual racing. There is a pretty clear line when something is pushing things too far (the fat bike in my CX example) vs a more honest issue (racing a gravel bike with 35c tires instead of 33s). I generally think that if we are going to bother having rules, they should be enforced and enforcement should be applied equally, but the cool/not cool comment was about it being very hard to describe what is not OK in words but very easy to see when you are there.

Doge

Taking this in reverse order...
I think we are in line in principle. The fast juniors stopped doing juniors - because it was not cool.

Is cycling the only USA sport where we take 17 year and 18 year old males at the peak of their strength and limit them - when competing with adults? I think so. 17 year olds have won Olympic track metals. And the future - it depends. Many kids in many sports have their best years as teens - and then move on. Faced with flying fighters/making money in something else they love or road racing I don't know what most kids would do. But they may not choose their sport.

I don't think adults racing juniors are being mean. But they have an advantage.

Gears. Whatever argument you can give for youth males about injury it is stronger for females that have about 8 times the knee injuries - and have less need for big gears. So the medical part is not founded on anything. That is just a rumor that has been around 30 years or so. And Hinault had knee surgery.

The real reason is USAC copies Belgium - kind-of. There are other countries with gear restrictions - they are different.

So why does Belgium do it? They want new racers to learn how to race in close quarters. An early developing racer (strong) would use a big gear to just ride away. So they put the 15-16 on a max 52X16 and on the kermesse races there really are no mountains to get away on. So you learn the race craft very early. And with fields over 100, well it works. And kids don't race with adults. I don't know the rules on that, but I know they don't.

Within the kids it is also an arbitrary limiter. People naturally choose different cadence for max power, some choose 85, some 110 and all over - you can see this on Strava. Gear restrictions force that choice. It forces someone that might peak at 93 RPM to lose torque and compete against the rider with max power at 110RPM. And then - when they are adults racing adults they have been selected on something that does not matter.

The 2nd part is the belief that it is better to spin. My comment is the jury is out on that, but regardless, that is a sports authority coaching. That is not their job, any more than setting up your fit.

USA copied a good idea where kids on like equipment race each other and transfer it to a country where there are so few kids racing we have them race adults - handicapped. Everyone is just good with it, because that is the way it is.

How does it affect juniors? A guess. Up a hill - it doesn't. Down the other side, it depends. In TTs junior learned to spin and coast @ 40mph descents while a big gear would have allowed him to pedal. My guess is 25:05 would have been 24:50, but not sure.
Slight downhill sprints, I think it can make a difference at/off the front. The difference between a descending escape or getting caught. Depends on the rider. My rider is a very torquey rider that does very well if there is an incline. A finish that requires 150rpm on junior gears would be good for several places at 110RPM. Good for a win vs 3rd. To me/us difference between 1st and 3rd is like 25th and 3rd, but the reality is it is good for a few places at the front. Riders are not trying so hard after the money is gone. I think Costa would have won Redlands, rather than 2nd if not on junior gears.