gravelinmygears 

This frame, described as an Eisentraut B model, has the bottom bracket but some of the lugs are different from both the Limited and the "Signature" trauts I've seen. The seat stay is like a Limited, tho. Anyone seen a similar frame?

Doug Fattic 

I'm not an Eisentraut expert (or even a casual observer - I visited his operation with a number of workers once in 1976). What I can tell you is that custom builders like myself kept a lot of different models of lugs on hand and would use them on a frame we were building for a variety of reasons including a customer wanted a certain one. That can be part of getting a "custom" frame. It is easy for the specifics to get lost on what exact model a frame is unless buying from the original owner.

gravelinmygears 

Thanks, Doug. That's helpful. It definitely has some typical markers for Eisentraut. There are different versions of the Limited, too. That's the way I'm leaning because all of the custom and "A" frames I've seen have a different seat stay.

juvela

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one simple check -

to be a genuine 'traut it needs to have an Italian dimension shell paired with a BSC steerer



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jdawginsc 

Interesting. Was the shell cut for Italian threads or British threads with a 70mm shell?

gravelinmygears 

I’ve asked the seller. I am hoping that someone chimes in who owns one of the frames that Eisentraut made for Turin or another shop. Didn’t he make some for Cyclesport? CID?

juvela

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Italian dimension = a 70mm width shell threaded 36.00mm X 24TPI


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repechage

Color me skeptical.
the lugs did not get much attention
stay and fork ends are domed
by the one approx date marker of the rear dropouts, that seat stay style at the seat lug had been in use for a while, not "easy" to do but quite possible.

Albert was making A frames and his shop producing the various Limited models.

I cannot see a smart logic for this frame.

jdawginsc 

Interesting considering the British headset threading.

juvela

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yes, that is exactly the point - will not be confused with anything else

a trait to be found on "A's", "B's", Limiteds and contract products


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gravelinmygears 

Here is what I suspect: this frame was made in one of his teaching workshops, but not by him. I’m always looking for his frames and I’ve seen some that don’t fit in any of the four categories: custom, A frame, limited, and “made to sell as a shop bike” for Turin or others. That last category is very undefined and I think a lot of frames made under his watch as a teacher are thought to be (or are passed off as) his own work.

gravelinmygears 

So now that the frame is no longer in consideration, I’m looking for a nice custom or A frame Eisentraut. Thanks everyone!

I really appreciate your help. It helps to thinks things through.

Doug Fattic 

The brazing on this frame looks way too clean to be done by a student in a 2 week class. When I visited his business in 1976 there were a lot of workers building his frames. In particular I remember one guy working on a custom (or whatever his top of the line frames were called) and he had a small rifler file cleaning a shoreline. It would be easy for me to imagine that any one of those workers could legitimately build an Eisentraut because they were working in his shop under his supervision. In fact I wonder when he went from being a one man operation too much bigger?

juvela

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1976 was during the Limited time

this operation was active for less than two year

recall hearing things about why Albert closed it

after it had been closed for a year or two a plan was put forward to do something similar again but on a larger scale and with greater automation

the financial backing was to be supplied by an entity called Basic Tool

for whatever reason this idea never went forward

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smontanaro 

Maybe mine is the exception that proves the rule, but my Turin Group Eisentraut (s/n 75T005) has a 67.5mm wide bottom bracket shell (just measured it). I bought the frame from jeirvine and know nothing about its backstory. It certainly appears to have original paint, so unless they faced and chased the living daylights out of it before painting it, I'd say it was a plain old 68mm shell. I'm pretty sure it has original paint, and the paint, at least on the NDS, covers the face.

gravelinmygears What's your serial number?

gravelinmygears 

I asked the seller but he ignored the question. He said he got the frame from "the folks that went to the frame building clinic that was conducted at georgetown cyclesport in the 70’s." Maybe Albert sold one there?

bikingshearer 

Any chance you got a serial number? That would help a lot, especially with pinning down a year. I'm not seeing anything that definitively says it's an Eisentraut of any persuasion - am I missing something?

The seat stay attachment clearly says "not a Model A," at least not from the 70s or early 80s.. However, it is the style of attachment used on Limiteds. I believe it is also the style of attachment used on Rainbow 'Trauts, which were built jointly by Eisentraut and Ed Litton in (I believe) the 80s. Those had the "A" frame downtube decals (which are nothing like the Limited's) plus a arched rainbow-and-fish graphic on the headtube.

Likewise, the BB shell says "not an A." Those were a special Eisentraut design, with the above-the-BB cable guides as part of the casting (not brazed on, as in the OP's photos) with a script "E" pantograph on the underside.

So what is it? I dunno. My guess would be a Limited, even with the lugs, but that is a guess and only once step away from a WAG. I am quite confident it is not an A. It could be a Rainbow. But from what I can see, it's possible it isn't an Eisentraut at all. .

gravelinmygears 

I cannot get a serial number. I've asked many questions (Serial number? How's the paint?) but he didn't answer. I told him I'm no longer interested. It's a nice frame but he's asking $500 for it and that's too much for so much mystery. I've paid too much for Eisentraut stuff, but I'd like to be confident in it's origin.

repechage

maybe a student project.

repechage

boy, you have a dim view of the Limited then.

bikingshearer 

Not at all. Limiteds are quite good frames. The build quality varied a bit depending on the builder, but not a lot and all were good. A, Limited, Rainbow - they're all good, with the A being the best embodiment of Albert's perfectionism.

What I did not and do not see in the photos is proof positive that it is any kind of Eisentraut. it is pretty consistent with a Limited and maybe a Rainbow, but nothing that is exclusive to something coming out of the Eisentraut shop. The seat stay attachment, for example, is cool but not unique: I have an early 80s Ron Cooper that has exactly that style attachment. I have seen others that I cannot dredge out of my aging memory at the moment. The BB cable guides are standard issue, found on too many frames to count. I'll stand by my guess that it is a Limited; if so, it's a good frame and would probably give someone many happy miles. But the photos are not definitive, it sounds like the current owner was not forthcoming with answers to reasonable questions, and for those reasons I think the OP was wise to walk away.

gravelinmygears 

He may have a Limited but I felt uneasy about it due to the unclear or omitted answers. Again, for $500 I wanted to be sure. And honestly, I'm trying to be less impulsive with my buying. Thanks for the information everyone.