Why kinda Eisentraut?
#1
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Why kinda Eisentraut?
This frame, described as an Eisentraut B model, has the bottom bracket but some of the lugs are different from both the Limited and the "Signature" trauts I've seen. The seat stay is like a Limited, tho. Anyone seen a similar frame?
#2
framebuilder
I'm not an Eisentraut expert (or even a casual observer - I visited his operation with a number of workers once in 1976). What I can tell you is that custom builders like myself kept a lot of different models of lugs on hand and would use them on a frame we were building for a variety of reasons including a customer wanted a certain one. That can be part of getting a "custom" frame. It is easy for the specifics to get lost on what exact model a frame is unless buying from the original owner.
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#3
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I'm not an Eisentraut expert (or even a casual observer - I visited his operation with a number of workers once in 1976). What I can tell you is that custom builders like myself kept a lot of different models of lugs on hand and would use them on a frame we were building for a variety of reasons including a customer wanted a certain one. That can be part of getting a "custom" frame. It is easy for the specifics to get lost on what exact model a frame is unless buying from the original owner.
#4
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one simple check -
to be a genuine 'traut it needs to have an Italian dimension shell paired with a BSC steerer
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one simple check -
to be a genuine 'traut it needs to have an Italian dimension shell paired with a BSC steerer
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Interesting. Was the shell cut for Italian threads or British threads with a 70mm shell?
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#6
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I’ve asked the seller. I am hoping that someone chimes in who owns one of the frames that Eisentraut made for Turin or another shop. Didn’t he make some for Cyclesport? CID?
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Color me skeptical.
the lugs did not get much attention
stay and fork ends are domed
by the one approx date marker of the rear dropouts, that seat stay style at the seat lug had been in use for a while, not "easy" to do but quite possible.
Albert was making A frames and his shop producing the various Limited models.
I cannot see a smart logic for this frame.
the lugs did not get much attention
stay and fork ends are domed
by the one approx date marker of the rear dropouts, that seat stay style at the seat lug had been in use for a while, not "easy" to do but quite possible.
Albert was making A frames and his shop producing the various Limited models.
I cannot see a smart logic for this frame.
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Interesting considering the British headset threading.
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
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#11
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Color me skeptical.
the lugs did not get much attention
stay and fork ends are domed
by the one approx date marker of the rear dropouts, that seat stay style at the seat lug had been in use for a while, not "easy" to do but quite possible.
Albert was making A frames and his shop producing the various Limited models.
I cannot see a smart logic for this frame.
the lugs did not get much attention
stay and fork ends are domed
by the one approx date marker of the rear dropouts, that seat stay style at the seat lug had been in use for a while, not "easy" to do but quite possible.
Albert was making A frames and his shop producing the various Limited models.
I cannot see a smart logic for this frame.
#12
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Thread Starter
$$$
So now that the frame is no longer in consideration, I’m looking for a nice custom or A frame Eisentraut. Thanks everyone!
I really appreciate your help. It helps to thinks things through.
I really appreciate your help. It helps to thinks things through.
#13
framebuilder
Here is what I suspect: this frame was made in one of his teaching workshops, but not by him. I’m always looking for his frames and I’ve seen some that don’t fit in any of the four categories: custom, A frame, limited, and “made to sell as a shop bike” for Turin or others. That last category is very undefined and I think a lot of frames made under his watch as a teacher are thought to be (or are passed off as) his own work.
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The brazing on this frame looks way too clean to be done by a student in a 2 week class. When I visited his business in 1976 there were a lot of workers building his frames. In particular I remember one guy working on a custom (or whatever his top of the line frames were called) and he had a small rifler file cleaning a shoreline. It would be easy for me to imagine that any one of those workers could legitimately build an Eisentraut because they were working in his shop under his supervision. In fact I wonder when he went from being a one man operation too much bigger?
1976 was during the Limited time
this operation was active for less than two year
recall hearing things about why Albert closed it
after it had been closed for a year or two a plan was put forward to do something similar again but on a larger scale and with greater automation
the financial backing was to be supplied by an entity called Basic Tool
for whatever reason this idea never went forward
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Last edited by juvela; 12-13-22 at 06:19 AM. Reason: spellin'
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gravelinmygears What's your serial number?
#16
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Serial number
Maybe mine is the exception that proves the rule, but my Turin Group Eisentraut (s/n 75T005) has a 67.5mm wide bottom bracket shell (just measured it). I bought the frame from jeirvine and know nothing about its backstory. It certainly appears to have original paint, so unless they faced and chased the living daylights out of it before painting it, I'd say it was a plain old 68mm shell. I'm pretty sure it has original paint, and the paint, at least on the NDS, covers the face.
gravelinmygears What's your serial number?
gravelinmygears What's your serial number?
#17
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Any chance you got a serial number? That would help a lot, especially with pinning down a year. I'm not seeing anything that definitively says it's an Eisentraut of any persuasion - am I missing something?
The seat stay attachment clearly says "not a Model A," at least not from the 70s or early 80s.. However, it is the style of attachment used on Limiteds. I believe it is also the style of attachment used on Rainbow 'Trauts, which were built jointly by Eisentraut and Ed Litton in (I believe) the 80s. Those had the "A" frame downtube decals (which are nothing like the Limited's) plus a arched rainbow-and-fish graphic on the headtube.
Likewise, the BB shell says "not an A." Those were a special Eisentraut design, with the above-the-BB cable guides as part of the casting (not brazed on, as in the OP's photos) with a script "E" pantograph on the underside.
So what is it? I dunno. My guess would be a Limited, even with the lugs, but that is a guess and only once step away from a WAG. I am quite confident it is not an A. It could be a Rainbow. But from what I can see, it's possible it isn't an Eisentraut at all. .
The seat stay attachment clearly says "not a Model A," at least not from the 70s or early 80s.. However, it is the style of attachment used on Limiteds. I believe it is also the style of attachment used on Rainbow 'Trauts, which were built jointly by Eisentraut and Ed Litton in (I believe) the 80s. Those had the "A" frame downtube decals (which are nothing like the Limited's) plus a arched rainbow-and-fish graphic on the headtube.
Likewise, the BB shell says "not an A." Those were a special Eisentraut design, with the above-the-BB cable guides as part of the casting (not brazed on, as in the OP's photos) with a script "E" pantograph on the underside.
So what is it? I dunno. My guess would be a Limited, even with the lugs, but that is a guess and only once step away from a WAG. I am quite confident it is not an A. It could be a Rainbow. But from what I can see, it's possible it isn't an Eisentraut at all. .
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#18
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I cannot get a serial number. I've asked many questions (Serial number? How's the paint?) but he didn't answer. I told him I'm no longer interested. It's a nice frame but he's asking $500 for it and that's too much for so much mystery. I've paid too much for Eisentraut stuff, but I'd like to be confident in it's origin.
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Any chance you got a serial number? That would help a lot, especially with pinning down a year. I'm not seeing anything that definitively says it's an Eisentraut of any persuasion - am I missing something?
The seat stay attachment clearly says "not a Model A," at least not from the 70s or early 80s.. However, it is the style of attachment used on Limiteds. I believe it is also the style of attachment used on Rainbow 'Trauts, which were built jointly by Eisentraut and Ed Litton in (I believe) the 80s. Those had the "A" frame downtube decals (which are nothing like the Limited's) plus a arched rainbow-and-fish graphic on the headtube.
Likewise, the BB shell says "not an A." Those were a special Eisentraut design, with the above-the-BB cable guides as part of the casting (not brazed on, as in the OP's photos) with a script "E" pantograph on the underside.
So what is it? I dunno. My guess would be a Limited, even with the lugs, but that is a guess and only once step away from a WAG. I am quite confident it is not an A. It could be a Rainbow. But from what I can see, it's possible it isn't an Eisentraut at all. .
The seat stay attachment clearly says "not a Model A," at least not from the 70s or early 80s.. However, it is the style of attachment used on Limiteds. I believe it is also the style of attachment used on Rainbow 'Trauts, which were built jointly by Eisentraut and Ed Litton in (I believe) the 80s. Those had the "A" frame downtube decals (which are nothing like the Limited's) plus a arched rainbow-and-fish graphic on the headtube.
Likewise, the BB shell says "not an A." Those were a special Eisentraut design, with the above-the-BB cable guides as part of the casting (not brazed on, as in the OP's photos) with a script "E" pantograph on the underside.
So what is it? I dunno. My guess would be a Limited, even with the lugs, but that is a guess and only once step away from a WAG. I am quite confident it is not an A. It could be a Rainbow. But from what I can see, it's possible it isn't an Eisentraut at all. .
#21
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Not at all. Limiteds are quite good frames. The build quality varied a bit depending on the builder, but not a lot and all were good. A, Limited, Rainbow - they're all good, with the A being the best embodiment of Albert's perfectionism.
What I did not and do not see in the photos is proof positive that it is any kind of Eisentraut. it is pretty consistent with a Limited and maybe a Rainbow, but nothing that is exclusive to something coming out of the Eisentraut shop. The seat stay attachment, for example, is cool but not unique: I have an early 80s Ron Cooper that has exactly that style attachment. I have seen others that I cannot dredge out of my aging memory at the moment. The BB cable guides are standard issue, found on too many frames to count. I'll stand by my guess that it is a Limited; if so, it's a good frame and would probably give someone many happy miles. But the photos are not definitive, it sounds like the current owner was not forthcoming with answers to reasonable questions, and for those reasons I think the OP was wise to walk away.
What I did not and do not see in the photos is proof positive that it is any kind of Eisentraut. it is pretty consistent with a Limited and maybe a Rainbow, but nothing that is exclusive to something coming out of the Eisentraut shop. The seat stay attachment, for example, is cool but not unique: I have an early 80s Ron Cooper that has exactly that style attachment. I have seen others that I cannot dredge out of my aging memory at the moment. The BB cable guides are standard issue, found on too many frames to count. I'll stand by my guess that it is a Limited; if so, it's a good frame and would probably give someone many happy miles. But the photos are not definitive, it sounds like the current owner was not forthcoming with answers to reasonable questions, and for those reasons I think the OP was wise to walk away.
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#22
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Limited standard for Limiteds
He may have a Limited but I felt uneasy about it due to the unclear or omitted answers. Again, for $500 I wanted to be sure. And honestly, I'm trying to be less impulsive with my buying. Thanks for the information everyone.