cars that drive themselves, will they see cyclits?
#1
sc0ch
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: St. Louis/Tucson/Berkeley/Boulder
Posts: 58
Bikes: CAAD7 Saeco, Kona Jake the Snake
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
cars that drive themselves, will they see cyclits?
I'm no fan of motoring, or motorists, but generally most drivers are safe because they remain attentive. However, potentially dangerous technology, developed by Ford and BMW, is premiering that allows motorists to be more inattentive. Said technology involves radar equipped cars that allow vehicles to drive themselves. These gagets are being introduced in baby steps, for instance:
<https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/bmw-working-on-collision-prevention-system/>
"BMW is developing a system to bring a car or truck to a complete stop (safely) if the driver loses control because of health-related problems.
Developed with help from the German government, BMW’s Emergency Stop Assistant is aimed at the elderly and people with medical problems, although BMW said it was applicable beyond that population.
Emergency Stop Assistant uses sensors, positioning data and other information (some of it based on existing technology in current BMWs), to determine when a driver isn’t reacting to a potential crash. It switches on the hazard lights and MANEUVERS THE VEHICLE TO THE SIDE OF THE ROAD BEFORE STOPPING IT ENTIRELY."
That last sentence, and the technology generally, is disconncerting, since often cyclists are along the side of the road. Will these radar equipped cars see cyclists?!? What if you're riding a carbon fiber bicycle. The industry is moving towards cars that drive themselves, but are they thinking of bicycles and pedestrians?
<https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/bmw-working-on-collision-prevention-system/>
"BMW is developing a system to bring a car or truck to a complete stop (safely) if the driver loses control because of health-related problems.
Developed with help from the German government, BMW’s Emergency Stop Assistant is aimed at the elderly and people with medical problems, although BMW said it was applicable beyond that population.
Emergency Stop Assistant uses sensors, positioning data and other information (some of it based on existing technology in current BMWs), to determine when a driver isn’t reacting to a potential crash. It switches on the hazard lights and MANEUVERS THE VEHICLE TO THE SIDE OF THE ROAD BEFORE STOPPING IT ENTIRELY."
That last sentence, and the technology generally, is disconncerting, since often cyclists are along the side of the road. Will these radar equipped cars see cyclists?!? What if you're riding a carbon fiber bicycle. The industry is moving towards cars that drive themselves, but are they thinking of bicycles and pedestrians?
Last edited by sc0ch; 07-29-09 at 03:46 PM.
#3
www.chipsea.blogspot.com
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South of Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,026
Bikes: Giant OCR C0 road
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is the continued absurdity of how we are trying to "fix" the rampant irresponsibility on our roadways!
The problem: Motor vehicle operators are derelict in their duty to operate with due care.
Proposed solution: Make technology compensate for recklessness!
This is trying to fix a software problem with hardware. But technology is doomed in an arms race with fools; There are so many of them and they are so persistent and innovative! Some real stratagems for making headway can be found here and here. (Not that anyone really wants to do the hard things to fix the mayhem and carnage on out streets.)
The problem: Motor vehicle operators are derelict in their duty to operate with due care.
Proposed solution: Make technology compensate for recklessness!
This is trying to fix a software problem with hardware. But technology is doomed in an arms race with fools; There are so many of them and they are so persistent and innovative! Some real stratagems for making headway can be found here and here. (Not that anyone really wants to do the hard things to fix the mayhem and carnage on out streets.)
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is an excellent question sc0ch! I would like to expand it further. What about when cars fly? When they do vertical landings, will the pilots (drivers) notice cyclists in the bike lanes? What about the auto pilots? Will it be able to sense us on our carbon fiber bikes?
Furthermore, what about when our national highway infrastructure moves from roads to embedded rails like in the prophetic movie "Minority Report"? Will our carbon fiber bikes be compatible? Will we need new wheelsets? Will there be any bike lanes?
Furthermore, what about when our national highway infrastructure moves from roads to embedded rails like in the prophetic movie "Minority Report"? Will our carbon fiber bikes be compatible? Will we need new wheelsets? Will there be any bike lanes?
#5
Punk Rock Lives
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Throughout the west in a van, on my bike, and in the forest
Posts: 3,305
Bikes: Long Haul Trucker with BRIFTERS!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times
in
40 Posts
I'm no fan of motoring, or motorists, but generally most drivers are safe because they remain attentive. However, potentially dangerous technology, developed by Ford and BMW, is premiering that allows motorists to be more inattentive. Said technology involves radar equipped cars that allow vehicles to drive themselves. ....
Anti-car and anti-progress luddism at its greatest. The cars may, in fact, in the future 'drive themselves,' but the incremental steps you whine so much about are, in fact, to make sure that the mistakes are corrected along the way, which is exactly how technology should move foreward. In the meantime all kinds of helpful technologies will warn of, or even prevent, accidents and fender benders which can be so annoying and harmful (if not fatal) to cyclists. Exactly how does a warning that a vehicle is on your right, thus preventing a right hook, constitute dangerous technology?
The vast majority of decisions about how to fly an airplane are made not by attentive pilots (or even inattentive ones) but by pilots who receive tremendous help, warning, and even control, from computerized systems. The incorporation of these onto our roadways is long overdue.
roughstuff
#7
jackalope
Join Date: May 2009
Location: MA.
Posts: 61
Bikes: couple of fast ones
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is the continued absurdity of how we are trying to "fix" the rampant irresponsibility on our roadways!
The problem: Motor vehicle operators are derelict in their duty to operate with due care.
Proposed solution: Make technology compensate for recklessness!
This is trying to fix a software problem with hardware. But technology is doomed in an arms race with fools; There are so many of them and they are so persistent and innovative! Some real stratagems for making headway can be found here and here. (Not that anyone really wants to do the hard things to fix the mayhem and carnage on out streets.)
The problem: Motor vehicle operators are derelict in their duty to operate with due care.
Proposed solution: Make technology compensate for recklessness!
This is trying to fix a software problem with hardware. But technology is doomed in an arms race with fools; There are so many of them and they are so persistent and innovative! Some real stratagems for making headway can be found here and here. (Not that anyone really wants to do the hard things to fix the mayhem and carnage on out streets.)
has anyone ever seen the movie idiocracy with luke wilson. its basically a look into the future 500 years from now and shows exactly where we are headed ha.
#8
Senior Member
There are plenty of commercially available LIDAR and radar systems capable of detecting and tracking pedestrians and cyclists in motion in traffic. I did my Master's thesis on mobile autonomous robots and have kept up with some of the R&D work in the field of autonomous vehicles, including NC State's entry into the DARPA race.
The main question is when these sensor systems become cost effective for a commercial auto-driver product. Product liability should compel manufacturers to make them at least as safe toward pedestrians and cyclists as normal human beings are, probably more so. Another question is whether a robot autopilot that is cautious enough to not risk collision with other traffic will drive fast enough to make owners willing to use it, as opposed to taking over manual control.
The main question is when these sensor systems become cost effective for a commercial auto-driver product. Product liability should compel manufacturers to make them at least as safe toward pedestrians and cyclists as normal human beings are, probably more so. Another question is whether a robot autopilot that is cautious enough to not risk collision with other traffic will drive fast enough to make owners willing to use it, as opposed to taking over manual control.
#9
kipuka explorer
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hilo Town, East Hawai'i
Posts: 3,297
Bikes: 1994 Trek 820, 2004 Fuji Absolute, 2005 Jamis Nova, 1977 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
You're barking up the wrong tree. This autopilot nonsense is really all about increasing the complexity and cost of vehicles and adding "planned obsolesence" to vehicles so that automobile makers and their suppliers can increase revenue. It isn't about safety or convenience, it's about profit.
__________________
--
-=- '05 Jamis Nova -=- '04 Fuji Absolute -=- '94 Trek 820 -=- '77 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36 -=-
Friends don't let friends use brifters.
--
-=- '05 Jamis Nova -=- '04 Fuji Absolute -=- '94 Trek 820 -=- '77 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36 -=-
Friends don't let friends use brifters.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 976
Bikes: Marin Pt. Reyes, Gary Fisher HiFi Pro, Easy Racers Gold Rush recumbent, Cannondale F600
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
When cars fly, maybe we'll be safer on the road
#11
A.K.A. purple fork man
In the meantime all kinds of helpful technologies will warn of, or even prevent, accidents and fender benders which can be so annoying and harmful (if not fatal) to cyclists. Exactly how does a warning that a vehicle is on your right, thus preventing a right hook, constitute dangerous technology?
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The new line of Mercedes already incorporates some of this automated technology. Supposedly it can detect if a driver has fallen asleep and safely stop the vehicle. I'll believe when I see it, I wouldn't entrust my safety to an algorythm, they lack judgement.
So much for the drunk driving laws, since an algorythm also won't differeniate between drunk and sick.
Mercedes is also experimenting with a car that will drive itself on highways. It does so by receiving fiber optic signals from sensors implanted in the road surface. Similar to how reflectors are now embedded on some highways. The sensors transfer data such as rate of speed and highway conditions.
I've seen video of the prototype driving itself around a race track. It's probably on the web some place. The car I saw could start, accelerate, and drive in a single track, no lane changes.
Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how George Jetson was able to pick up his car after it folded itself into a suitcase. He must have been stronger than he looks.
So much for the drunk driving laws, since an algorythm also won't differeniate between drunk and sick.
Mercedes is also experimenting with a car that will drive itself on highways. It does so by receiving fiber optic signals from sensors implanted in the road surface. Similar to how reflectors are now embedded on some highways. The sensors transfer data such as rate of speed and highway conditions.
I've seen video of the prototype driving itself around a race track. It's probably on the web some place. The car I saw could start, accelerate, and drive in a single track, no lane changes.
Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how George Jetson was able to pick up his car after it folded itself into a suitcase. He must have been stronger than he looks.
Last edited by DX Rider; 07-29-09 at 03:57 PM.
#13
sc0ch
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: St. Louis/Tucson/Berkeley/Boulder
Posts: 58
Bikes: CAAD7 Saeco, Kona Jake the Snake
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
hilarity. I get burned for being pro-carbon while anti-technology! I only mention carbon in looking out for my (stealth?) carbon fiber brethren. However, sggoodri's input on the robustness of modern radar is encouraging. In its final form, if self-driven cars are safer for all, then why not. Don't mean to be so, like o my gawd, 1800. However, that said, people whose age or medical state would benefit from an anticrash system probably shouldn't be driving. Driving is a priviledge, not a right, and the good of the many must overrule the convenience of the few. Public and senior transit exists for a reason.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There is a valid concern that as we add more forms of automated safety netting around drivers' behavior, drivers will feel as though they no longer need to be particularly attentive while handling their vehicles. E.g.: "This car has an accident-avoidance radar system, so it should be no problem if I look away from the highway for 10 seconds to answer this text message."
Automated safety system sounds great and it works for commercial airlines and letting a computer drive sounds peachy.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
That last sentence, and the technology generally, is disconncerting, since often cyclists are along the side of the road. Will these radar equipped cars see cyclists?!? What if you're riding a carbon fiber bicycle. The industry is moving towards cars that drive themselves, but are they thinking of bicycles and pedestrians?
#16
Dogs like me.
It's a moot point. The automobile is heading for extinction, and the automobile-based lifestyle will be unsustainable in the healthy economy of the future. About freakin' time, too.
#17
Membership Not Required
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
14 Posts
The new line of Mercedes already incorporates some of this automated technology. Supposedly it can detect if a driver has fallen asleep and safely stop the vehicle. I'll believe when I see it, I wouldn't entrust my safety to an algorythm, they lack judgement.
So much for the drunk driving laws, since an algorythm also won't differeniate between drunk and sick.
Mercedes is also experimenting with a car that will drive itself on highways. It does so by receiving fiber optic signals from sensors implanted in the road surface. Similar to how reflectors are now embedded on some highways. The sensors transfer data such as rate of speed and highway conditions.
I've seen video of the prototype driving itself around a race track. It's probably on the web some place. The car I saw could start, accelerate, and drive in a single track, no lane changes.
Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how George Jetson was able to pick up his car after it folded itself into a suitcase. He must have been stronger than he looks.
So much for the drunk driving laws, since an algorythm also won't differeniate between drunk and sick.
Mercedes is also experimenting with a car that will drive itself on highways. It does so by receiving fiber optic signals from sensors implanted in the road surface. Similar to how reflectors are now embedded on some highways. The sensors transfer data such as rate of speed and highway conditions.
I've seen video of the prototype driving itself around a race track. It's probably on the web some place. The car I saw could start, accelerate, and drive in a single track, no lane changes.
Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how George Jetson was able to pick up his car after it folded itself into a suitcase. He must have been stronger than he looks.
Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#19
A.K.A. purple fork man
People already do that. There was a report on a study done with truck drivers. 150million miles with cameras setup inside and they found on average the drivers looked away 5seconds when texting.
Automated safety system sounds great and it works for commercial airlines and letting a computer drive sounds peachy.
Automated safety system sounds great and it works for commercial airlines and letting a computer drive sounds peachy.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
What about when the side of the road doesn't "exist," i.e. a shear drop?
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Anti-car and anti-progress luddism at its greatest. The cars may, in fact, in the future 'drive themselves,' but the incremental steps you whine so much about are, in fact, to make sure that the mistakes are corrected along the way, which is exactly how technology should move foreward. In the meantime all kinds of helpful technologies will warn of, or even prevent, accidents and fender benders which can be so annoying and harmful (if not fatal) to cyclists. Exactly how does a warning that a vehicle is on your right, thus preventing a right hook, constitute dangerous technology?
The vast majority of decisions about how to fly an airplane are made not by attentive pilots (or even inattentive ones) but by pilots who receive tremendous help, warning, and even control, from computerized systems. The incorporation of these onto our roadways is long overdue.
roughstuff
The vast majority of decisions about how to fly an airplane are made not by attentive pilots (or even inattentive ones) but by pilots who receive tremendous help, warning, and even control, from computerized systems. The incorporation of these onto our roadways is long overdue.
roughstuff
When incorporating aviation technology into automobiles we have to make sure that it is done in such a way so as not to be distracting to the driver. Don't forget that this is the 21st century and we already have a little thing called "information overload." We don't need more distracted drivers on the roads, rather we need less distractions in the cars.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
The new line of Mercedes already incorporates some of this automated technology. Supposedly it can detect if a driver has fallen asleep and safely stop the vehicle. I'll believe when I see it, I wouldn't entrust my safety to an algorythm, they lack judgement.
So much for the drunk driving laws, since an algorythm also won't differeniate between drunk and sick.
Mercedes is also experimenting with a car that will drive itself on highways. It does so by receiving fiber optic signals from sensors implanted in the road surface. Similar to how reflectors are now embedded on some highways. The sensors transfer data such as rate of speed and highway conditions.
I've seen video of the prototype driving itself around a race track. It's probably on the web some place. The car I saw could start, accelerate, and drive in a single track, no lane changes.
Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how George Jetson was able to pick up his car after it folded itself into a suitcase. He must have been stronger than he looks.
So much for the drunk driving laws, since an algorythm also won't differeniate between drunk and sick.
Mercedes is also experimenting with a car that will drive itself on highways. It does so by receiving fiber optic signals from sensors implanted in the road surface. Similar to how reflectors are now embedded on some highways. The sensors transfer data such as rate of speed and highway conditions.
I've seen video of the prototype driving itself around a race track. It's probably on the web some place. The car I saw could start, accelerate, and drive in a single track, no lane changes.
Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how George Jetson was able to pick up his car after it folded itself into a suitcase. He must have been stronger than he looks.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa/St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 9,352
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock Mountain (Stolen); Giant Seek 2 (Stolen); Diamondback Ascent mid 1980 - 1997
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
In their current form, yes, but I am sure that in one form or another that they'll be around for a LONG time.
#24
Punk Rock Lives
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Throughout the west in a van, on my bike, and in the forest
Posts: 3,305
Bikes: Long Haul Trucker with BRIFTERS!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times
in
40 Posts
There is a valid concern that as we add more forms of automated safety netting around drivers' behavior, drivers will feel as though they no longer need to be particularly attentive while handling their vehicles. E.g.: "This car has an accident-avoidance radar system, so it should be no problem if I look away from the highway for 10 seconds to answer this text message."
It is a ways off---and as I said, we will use trial and error for new technologies along the way---but I can envision a point where the driver performs only the most basic functions when behind the wheel, and the vehicle largely drives itself.
roughstuff
#25
Punk Rock Lives
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Throughout the west in a van, on my bike, and in the forest
Posts: 3,305
Bikes: Long Haul Trucker with BRIFTERS!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 46 Times
in
40 Posts
D'oh! Why say healthy economies of the future? Why not look at healthy economies of the present...maybe like North Korea, Zimbabwe, or some other 3rd world zithole, to see how much low cost private transit paralyzes economic growth!
roughstuff