Cyclist on sidewalk runs over a little girl video)
#151
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"‘Hit-and-run’ cyclist drags toddler along pavement ... but says his life has been destroyed"
?Hit-and-run? cyclist drags toddler along pavement ... but says his life has been destroyed | News.com.au
"‘Hit-and-run’ cyclist drags toddler along pavement ... but says his life has been destroyed"
?Hit-and-run? cyclist drags toddler along pavement ... but says his life has been destroyed | News.com.au
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#152
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A bit more info. The girls name was Lucie Wilding and the cyclist was Andrew Holland. This has been a huge story around the UK so you can google to find out more. Holland said that it was not a hit-and-run but that he was stunned for a moment after the crash but that he did go back to apologize and that if the full video is shown it will show him doing so immediately after the point at which the public video is cut. He went to a local police station afterwards and then went back a second time on Friday for a more in-depth interview. He said that he did not hurl abuse at anyone.
Apparently a few feet down from where the crash happened is a blue shared use sign indicating that pedestrians and bicycles should share the pavement and a bit beyond that is a narrow painted bike lane. It's unclear if the portion where the crash happened is shared use or if that doesn't start for another 10 feet. It is apparently very common for people to ride bikes along the section of pavement where the crash happened to get to the bike lane farther on.
The girls mother said that he rode off on his bike but Holland's father and a bystander have said that he didn't ride off but that his father loaded his bike in the car and drove him off.
Apparently a few feet down from where the crash happened is a blue shared use sign indicating that pedestrians and bicycles should share the pavement and a bit beyond that is a narrow painted bike lane. It's unclear if the portion where the crash happened is shared use or if that doesn't start for another 10 feet. It is apparently very common for people to ride bikes along the section of pavement where the crash happened to get to the bike lane farther on.
The girls mother said that he rode off on his bike but Holland's father and a bystander have said that he didn't ride off but that his father loaded his bike in the car and drove him off.
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#153
Jeff Vader
With all of the blaming and fault finding we've completely ignored that ultimately blame may lay with traffic engineers who didn't provide a safe place for bicycle riders and so forcing them to choose between a potentially dangerous road with cars or the pavement/sidewalk.
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#154
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it's really unfortunate, the cyclist shouldn't have been on the sidewalk.
all this finger pointing blaming the mom and the child is just preposterous. the cyclist shouldn't have been on the sidewalk.
the fact he didn't know he wasn't supposed to be on the sidewalks is irrelevant, that was his responsibility to learn, and now he's learned it in a really harsh way.
if mom was parked across the street, i am not sure this little girl would have stopped in running out into car traffic. 3 is a really iffy age and you can't really let them out in an urban setting, but i know how easy it is for kids to bolt free and run about without looking. when children are below our line of sight, it makes it that much harder. how many times have kids been run over in their own driveways? it's unbelievable.
lessons to be learned by all.
all this finger pointing blaming the mom and the child is just preposterous. the cyclist shouldn't have been on the sidewalk.
the fact he didn't know he wasn't supposed to be on the sidewalks is irrelevant, that was his responsibility to learn, and now he's learned it in a really harsh way.
if mom was parked across the street, i am not sure this little girl would have stopped in running out into car traffic. 3 is a really iffy age and you can't really let them out in an urban setting, but i know how easy it is for kids to bolt free and run about without looking. when children are below our line of sight, it makes it that much harder. how many times have kids been run over in their own driveways? it's unbelievable.
lessons to be learned by all.
#155
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1) We start with a two-lane roadway (one each direction) with a speed limit of 15 or 20 mph and motor vehicles are not allowed to pass bicycle riders or disabled folk on mobility scooters nor are they allowed to tailgate them (must stay back at least 10 feet).
2) If we want motor vehicles to be able to drive faster then we must add a protected bikeway that meets CROW standards. If we cannot afford such a bikeway then see rule #1 .
#156
Jeff Vader
Here's the way I would approach it.
1) We start with a two-lane roadway (one each direction) with a speed limit of 15 or 20 mph and motor vehicles are not allowed to pass bicycle riders or disabled folk on mobility scooters nor are they allowed to tailgate them (must stay back at least 10 feet).
2) If we want motor vehicles to be able to drive faster then we must add a protected bikeway that meets CROW standards. If we cannot afford such a bikeway then see rule #1 .
1) We start with a two-lane roadway (one each direction) with a speed limit of 15 or 20 mph and motor vehicles are not allowed to pass bicycle riders or disabled folk on mobility scooters nor are they allowed to tailgate them (must stay back at least 10 feet).
2) If we want motor vehicles to be able to drive faster then we must add a protected bikeway that meets CROW standards. If we cannot afford such a bikeway then see rule #1 .
Depending on the agency that owns the facility in question, there may be some statutory obstacles to point #1 . Not sure if a mobility scooter would be legal on the road, either. Protected bikeways are great, too.
But, as a traffic engineer (who rides bikes) I can tell you, we can recommend all day long, but the legislature is under no obligation to implement recommendations.
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All I saw was a few cars driving slowly along a residential street, no particular danger to cyclists. What I did see was a stupid cyclist riding far too fast along a sidewalk where there was already one pedestrian(the child's mother). This numbskull showed total disregard for safety. He should have been riding at a walking pace if he wanted to ride there.There is no overreaction, there is only revulsion for an idiot who shouldn't have been there in the first place. As a sometime pedestrian I have a real problem with idiots on bicycles who ride along at speeds that put me in danger. Whenever I see them I brace myself to knock them onto the ground. A cyclist on the sidewalk anywhere there are pedestrians around is a public danger
#158
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A Federal court just sided against WisDOT on 15 years of unrealistic traffic projections they were using to justify a road expansion project and the judge added in his remarks that his regard for traffic engineers, given how poorly we rate safety wise compared to other countries, is quite low.
Using statutory obstacles (which are based on traffic engineers recommendations) is a poor excuse. NACTO and a long line of traffic engineers constantly blaming our high fatality rates on drivers rather than poor road design is a poor excuse. The traffic engineering profession in the U.S. needs to fix itself before it looses all credibility and finds states and municipalities looking to engineers from overseas to fix our problems. [off my soapbox now]
I've worked with gobs of engineers from gobs of areas. I raced cars for a number of years as well as sailboats. I worked with bio-medical companies and companies that manufactured audio equipment. In all of these the engineers were laser focused on making things as good as they possibly could. Why can't U.S. traffic engineers be more like this?
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It wasn't a quote. So it wasn't a misquote.
Why just in public? It's not like children don't get into trouble at home either.
And the whole "every second" thing in public or not would require the "hovering" you aren't recommending.
Sounds like "hovering" to me if you aren't too far to do anything about whatever you see.
And the whole "every second" thing in public or not would require the "hovering" you aren't recommending.
Sounds like "hovering" to me if you aren't too far to do anything about whatever you see.
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-26-15 at 02:32 PM.
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Why greater vigilance is necessary in public should be obvious, if you've ever had any kids.
#161
Jeff Vader
Statutory requirements are almost entirely based on recommendations from the traffic engineering profession. The U.S. traffic engineering profession, including NACTO, AASHTO, and FHWA, have given the U.S. the most dangerous road system of all developed countries (though Greece occasionally gives us a run for our last place money). That's not something to be proud of.
A Federal court just sided against WisDOT on 15 years of unrealistic traffic projections they were using to justify a road expansion project and the judge added in his remarks that his regard for traffic engineers, given how poorly we rate safety wise compared to other countries, is quite low.
Using statutory obstacles (which are based on traffic engineers recommendations) is a poor excuse. NACTO and a long line of traffic engineers constantly blaming our high fatality rates on drivers rather than poor road design is a poor excuse. The traffic engineering profession in the U.S. needs to fix itself before it looses all credibility and finds states and municipalities looking to engineers from overseas to fix our problems. [off my soapbox now]
I've worked with gobs of engineers from gobs of areas. I raced cars for a number of years as well as sailboats. I worked with bio-medical companies and companies that manufactured audio equipment. In all of these the engineers were laser focused on making things as good as they possibly could. Why can't U.S. traffic engineers be more like this?
A Federal court just sided against WisDOT on 15 years of unrealistic traffic projections they were using to justify a road expansion project and the judge added in his remarks that his regard for traffic engineers, given how poorly we rate safety wise compared to other countries, is quite low.
Using statutory obstacles (which are based on traffic engineers recommendations) is a poor excuse. NACTO and a long line of traffic engineers constantly blaming our high fatality rates on drivers rather than poor road design is a poor excuse. The traffic engineering profession in the U.S. needs to fix itself before it looses all credibility and finds states and municipalities looking to engineers from overseas to fix our problems. [off my soapbox now]
I've worked with gobs of engineers from gobs of areas. I raced cars for a number of years as well as sailboats. I worked with bio-medical companies and companies that manufactured audio equipment. In all of these the engineers were laser focused on making things as good as they possibly could. Why can't U.S. traffic engineers be more like this?
You describe bio-medical companies and audio companies focusing on making things as good as they could. Great. Private companies often have R&D dollars to play with.
And I know of no US traffic engineer that wouldn't be happy to improve safety anywhere.
With public money, you can't get too cute, lest you be accused of misusing public funds. There are many locations that could use some improvement. First, you have to know about it (so complaints are investigated), you have to determine a suitable solution (that would satisfy as many parties as possible), so many times a study is performed. With a need and data in hand, then a solution is selected, and we try to figure out how to pay for it.
To make a change based on an isolated incident without some assessment would be irresponsible.
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#162
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There are occasions where it is more important to keep an eye or hand on your child than others. In the video instance while they are in the yard they are likely fairly safe. Once they are on the pavement they are fairly safe though someone this young should be kept a bit of a close watch on. For the few seconds transitioning between these requires considerably more attention (and hand holding) from parents as there is a danger, even from someone walking, for the exact reason we've seen in this video.
It's the "every second of the day" thing I'm criticising.
#163
Senior Member
We've also seen time and time again how money is wasted on road widening projects instead of being spent on safety improvements. These projects are often at the behest of the traffic engineering and road building professions.
Edit: BTW, I think roundabouts (vs traffic circles, etc.) were actually fairly new at this time and yet they'd determined after just a few years the safety benefits and were moving fairly quickly to implement them.
Last edited by CrankyOne; 05-26-15 at 02:59 PM.
#164
Jeff Vader
Many road design issues that have resulted in our roads being so dangerous are not money issues. Extra wide lanes, huge radiuses at junctions, right-on-red, pork chops, crossings within a junction rather than back from a junction, and many others are not really money issues but purely bad design. Well, actually the extra-wide lanes and some other dangerous elements cost more than safer alternatives. Most elements of better design would either cost the same or less as current poor designs.
We've also seen time and time again how money is wasted on road widening projects instead of being spent on safety improvements. These projects are often at the behest of the traffic engineering and road building professions.
We've also seen time and time again how money is wasted on road widening projects instead of being spent on safety improvements. These projects are often at the behest of the traffic engineering and road building professions.
I very much agree. For 32 years we've been in the lowest 10% of safety of all OECD countries and for the past 12 years we've been the worst (except for two years when Greece was worse). Yet we continue to build roads to the same poor design standards. We should be looking to Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands, Finland, Germany, and elsewhere to see what makes their roads so much safer and then apply their standards here. In 1987 I was at a conference in Stockholm on various differences in the US and Europe. Two different speakers mentioned road safety and specifically mentioned roundabouts. And yet we are just now, almost 30 years later, introducing roundabouts.
Edit: BTW, I think roundabouts (vs traffic circles, etc.) were actually fairly new at this time and yet they'd determined after just a few years the safety benefits and were moving fairly quickly to implement them.
Edit: BTW, I think roundabouts (vs traffic circles, etc.) were actually fairly new at this time and yet they'd determined after just a few years the safety benefits and were moving fairly quickly to implement them.
But you imply that traffic engineers have a magic wand, can wave it, and say "do this" and make it happen. That is not the case.
I have been overruled more than once when a local politician wanted a traffic light where it wasn't justified.
It would probably be different if I could say "This is unsafe". But more often than not, it isn't that simple. Just getting in a car is "unsafe".
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We are all a litter of piglets in the barn fire of life - Piney McKnuckle
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#165
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we need roundabout sidewalks and divided lanes
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#166
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I agree on roundabouts. There are a couple of them where I ride, and I like them far better the regular 4-way intersections.
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That's your opinion, and it sounds like you are only insisting that because it helps your case. Almost no one else agrees.
The parents certainly share the blame - or takes most of it - IF it was a MUP as someone suggested it could be. Otherwise, nothing on the video CONFIRMS they share the blame.
The parents certainly share the blame - or takes most of it - IF it was a MUP as someone suggested it could be. Otherwise, nothing on the video CONFIRMS they share the blame.
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Sort of but not exactly. It seems more like an afterthought. It's looks like "concern trolling". He doesn't appear to actually seem the cyclist has any "responsibility" at all.
Anyway, the following was the post I was commenting about. It's a straw man (putting words into people's mouths, more accurately).
It's possible that she could have taken reasonable actions that would have avoided the collision. It's possible that the cyclist could have done so too. He makes no comment about that (his focus is seriously one sided).
Anyway, the following was the post I was commenting about. It's a straw man (putting words into people's mouths, more accurately).
It's possible that she could have taken reasonable actions that would have avoided the collision. It's possible that the cyclist could have done so too. He makes no comment about that (his focus is seriously one sided).
#170
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Ask them what it's really like trying to "lock down" an active toddler and how possible it is to ensure they never ever get injured at every second of the day.
The answer will surprise you. Until then, since no amount of explanation will dent your weirdly confident notions that is backed up by zero experience. I hope you don't try that with war vets just because you've played Call of Duty.
Good luck with that.
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?Hit-and-run? cyclist drags toddler along pavement ... but says his life has been destroyed | News.com.au
============
“Apparently it was a ‘hit-and-run’, but it wasn’t,” he said.
Mr Holland’s family said he did not flee the scene, but was driven away by his 64-year-old dad George who happened to be driving by.
“His life has been destroyed,” George said about his son.
Mr Holland said he didn’t know it was illegal to drive on the footpath.
==============
I assume "illegal to drive" meant "illegal to ride".
============
“Apparently it was a ‘hit-and-run’, but it wasn’t,” he said.
Mr Holland’s family said he did not flee the scene, but was driven away by his 64-year-old dad George who happened to be driving by.
“His life has been destroyed,” George said about his son.
Mr Holland said he didn’t know it was illegal to drive on the footpath.
==============
I assume "illegal to drive" meant "illegal to ride".
#172
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This is where the division is - the best advice I can give you is, give up all pre-conceived "I know better than parents themselves" arrogance and talk to a parent you respect.
Ask them what it's really like trying to "lock down" an active toddler and how possible it is to ensure they never ever get injured at every second of the day.
The answer will surprise you. Until then, since no amount of explanation will dent your weirdly confident notions that is backed up by zero experience. I hope you don't try that with war vets just because you've played Call of Duty.
Good luck with that.
Ask them what it's really like trying to "lock down" an active toddler and how possible it is to ensure they never ever get injured at every second of the day.
The answer will surprise you. Until then, since no amount of explanation will dent your weirdly confident notions that is backed up by zero experience. I hope you don't try that with war vets just because you've played Call of Duty.
Good luck with that.
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Sure. Kids die all the time. They find Uncle Joe's gun and shoot their little sister or themselves. They run in front of cars. They swallow pills or cleaning agents. They get mauled by dogs. The list is endless. But, of course, it seems to never be the parent's fault. Funny how that works.