Rocket-Sauce 

Filippi
Donoratico
Salani

Barrettscv 

Getting back to the opening post;


A great company builds a wide range of product, but very few companies build the best quality in meaningful quantities.

KonAaron Snake 

(It doesn't matter where it was made, what matters is who made it, how's it fit and what was it made to do vs. what you want to do with it)

satbuilder 

Nice group of bikes. I have one of those and someday hope to have one of the other two.

thomalan

Only one Italian maker on my list as they were, in my opinion, the vanguard for the rest. They made their own Headsets, bars, stems, hubs, saddles and of course the first clipless pedals and a few of the best looking frames ever produced.
No names pantographed into other companies gear for Cino. Yes, its Cinelli of course!


But then with my '58 Corsa giving me the eye from the corner of the study how could I say anything else. - Alan

KonAaron Snake 

Go for all three.

rlorenz2

Tommasini

D1andonlyDman

Keep in mind that Bianchi has also produced more crappy and mediocre bikes than just about any of the other Italian Marques we have discussed here. I'll go so far as to claim that Bianchi has produced more crappy bikes than De Rosa and Tommasini, Cinelli and Ciocc have together produced ANY bikes. The simple fact is, De Rosa, Tommasini, Cinelli and Ciocc have never mass-produced bikes - their production has always been artisinal. Bianchi has mass-produced MANY bikes. Yes, they make many very fine bikes, but they also make many that are not so fine. Size matters, but not in so much of a good way.

Barrettscv 

Wow, I would have never known any of this...

Bandera

Having had the "Artisanal" production of more Italian pseudo-quality framesets inflicted on me for final assembly "back when" than I care to recall fondly many were simply haphazardly made badly (un)finished product that required an enormous amount of time (for which we charged) to finish into a saleable/rideable machine.

A well designed and controlled production environment will produce product that falls within the upper and lower control limits of Quality, "Artisans" not so much.

The Columbus SL frameset that I've raced and ridden for the last 39 years: Trek 900.

-Bandera

D1andonlyDman

Well certainly, if all you care about is the utilitarian functionality of the bike, then artisinal craftsmanship won't be your thing. I personally also value the aesthetics of the bike, and the craftsmanship that went into it. And frankly, my Trek and Lemond and made by Panasonic Schwinn don't match the aesthetics of my De Rosa and my Tommasini. But I will concede that the former 3 bikes are just as fast and as well-functioning as the latter two. But they are not actually faster, hence the superior aesthetics puts the Italian hand-built bikes above the other factory-built ones, on style points alone - at least to my personal taste.

Bandera

A properly designed, accurately mitered, carefully brazed, de-fluxed and chem treated straight and durably finished frameset with a sensible BSC bottom bracket that can/would be ridden successfully in competition was/is "My Thing." Aesthetics is a place on the podium to me.

"Artisanal craftsmanship" of Italian framesets back when I was building up race bikes was generally lacking, you went to a USA custom builder like RRB for Quality not the Italians and to Trek for a good affordable race machine.

-Bandera

D1andonlyDman

Frankly, I would guess that FAR more folks collect bikes, and buy them for their aesthetic appeal, than who actually race them competitively. And I understand that if racing IS your thing, you view it as strictly a tool to do a job. I, however, want something much different from that from my bikes. Fortunately, you can have your Treks, and your bikes built by big Asian corporations, while I can get my Italian handbuilts without worrying about you taking any of their small production.

Bikerider007

A few years old but this guy seems to have a list. Ugo De Rosa/Milano - Master frame builder - San Diego Italian Film FestivalSan Diego Italian Film Festival | San Diego Italian Film Festival

@D1andonlyDman, Italian bikes do look good, too bad you wasted money on those bikes that have no racing pedigree.

Bandera

When I pull my old TX900, long converted to a FG, down from it's hook for a ride I can reflect that it's the tool that I used to place on road race podiums decades ago, is still perfectly serviceable and looks good enough to me.

I'm not a Collector, all of my C&V machines have become so by attrition.
Tools? Certainly not Objects of Veneration.

Back to the OP's post:
Rose tinted glasses not needed, "back when" Quality was not very great in Italian frameset construction for those of us who had to make them serviceable.
After that wresting match most rode very well, but Ital bottom bracket design did/does suck compared to BSC. Oh, and the paint fell off and they rusted internally.

Other that: thumb:

-Bandera

D1andonlyDman

I would agree that your TX900 was perfectly competent race bike, but not worthy of veneration. OTOH, my De Rosa and Tommasini ARE worthy of veneration for their aesthetics. And since they are each unique in their own way, they are different from any De Rosa or Tommasini that YOU may have experienced.

Bandera

Veneration? Really?

"Veneration
noun
The act of adoring, especially reverently:"

Veneration - definition of veneration by The Free Dictionary

Well, have at it although Moses may disagree with such idolatry I don't judge: Exodus 32:6

Moses didn't have a sprint and the Italians didn't know how to thread a 'fixed" cup.
"Let thy fixed cup unwind perpetually and let thy chrome peel while thy transfers fall unto the earth and thy paint peels from thy mis-aligned rust filled tubes."
-Amen

As always: Suit yourself and worship as you please.

-Bandera

D1andonlyDman

Both my Tommasini and De Rosa are about 30 years old, and neither has a speck of rust, nor a speck of lost chrome and I believe any misalignment of the tubes would have shown itself by now, and it hasn't. Sorry to hear that you've been the victim of poor quality control, but thankfully, I have not. Actually, the paint on both of my Trek bikes has not held up nearly as well.

KonAaron Snake 

Yeah...those italians that created the geometry that everyone used were just junk. And of course they were all the same and can be lumped together.

oldbobcat

My Gios ('78 or '79) rusted horribly, even after the repaint. Gios paint always had a bad reputation, but it was otherwise a nicely made frame. I appreciated that the lug points weren't shaved down, the better to stand up to repairs.

I had the opportunity to work on a Serotta 7-Eleven team replica a couple years ago. The metal work was lovely, but one look at how the seat and head lugs were "relieved" and sculpted, and it was obvious these frames wouldn't hold up on Belgian cobbles, especially under the likes of Bob Roll. Still, I'm sure it would be a nice ride on smooth US roads at moderate speeds.

My California Masi looks and feels like a workhorse, a balanced all-around tool for the amateur rider who had to buy his own equipment. That gets my respect more than pantographing and chrome.

But if a 58 cm DeRosa fell into my lap, I'd probably sell my Madone to fix it up.

Bandera

See Post #25 .

-Bandera

merziac

"quote, thomalan
No names pantographed into other companies gear for Cino. Yes, its Cinelli of course!


This!

Cinelli

Cinelli

Cinelli

atelier onda

Glad that you put scapin 1st

atelier onda

This are not italian frame builders

jamesdak 

Hmmm, I can only chime in based on my experience since I rotate several Italian rides for my daily rides. I'll try to rate them and say why....

1. Giordana XL Super - Billato Brothers built / fast, light, comfortable,does everything well.



2. Bass Gap - Basso Built / Fast and so smooth, sometimes I feel some flex but the smoothness over rough stuff is amazing.



3. Greg LeMond Maillot Jaune - Billato Brothers built / stiff and always fast yet fairly comfortable, 1st gen Campagnolo indexing RD is the only weakpoint



4. Greg LeMond Ventoux - Billato Brothers built / Built up for comfort, perfect century machine,



5. Giordana Antares - Billato Brothers built / fast, stiff, a bit heavy, just feels right when on it though



6. Bianchi Campione - Bianchi built / Beautiful bike but honestly nothing special to me




I can't find fault with the build quality of any of my Billato built machines.

*** I've got a beautiful De Rosa Nouvo Classico frame still waiting to be built. I'm betting this one will move near the top of my list when done.***