1saxman

1989 Bridgestone Comp MB2 with Wheelsmith 14 ga stainless spokes. Bike has mostly been stored and probably has less than 100 miles on it, although there was a period of fairly hard trail use. I want to have some new rims swapped in because the old ones have a couple dents in the braking surfaces. What do you think of re-using the spokes? There is no damage, bending or corrosion on them and all the nipples will turn. Hubs are fine too, although I will clean and pack the bearings before taking the wheels in.

Shimagnolo

You can re-use the spokes if the new rim has the same ERD as the old one.

blamp28

You would be limited to rims with the exact same spoke bed diameter or ERD (effective rim diameter).

1saxman

I guess I'll have to leave it to the techs. The old rims are Ritchey Vantage Sport MTB 26" x 32 hole. The new Mavic rims are also 26" x 32 hole and have an ETRTO comparable size of 559 x 17.

Shimagnolo

559 is the bead seat diameter, not the ERD.

fietsbob

Equivalent Diameter is the spoke head nipple seat. varies with the extrusion profile.
Identical rims are easy to swap .
I just tape the old one and the new one along side each other, de-tension the spokes
a portion of a turn at a time..
and move them one at a time to the matching hole in the new rim,
refresh the anti-seize on the threads, then put the nipple on.

1saxman

I see, a rim with a 'flat' contour between the sides would obviously require a longer spoke than one with a 'peaked' contour. I don't have the new ones yet but going by the pictures everything looks like the Ritchey rims. I think it'll probably work. I actually built a number of wheels 25 years ago that worked out fine. I remember very carefully going by the lacing instructions for 'cross 4' or whatever. I have a dishing gauge and a truing stand, and of course all the spoke wrenches. I just have too many other things to do since I retired; if that sounds incongruous to you, you must not be retired!

Retro Grouch 

Don't bet on it. The tolerance for spoke length is only about plus or minus 1 millimeter.

prathmann

Perfectly feasible to reuse spokes provided the new rim ERD matches as others have said. You could also first check to see how close the spokes come to the end of the nipples to see how much +/- you could go on the length if the new ERD is a little different. When reusing spokes it's best to move them over one at a time so the position of each spoke in the hub stays the same. Over time the spoke will press a little groove into the hub flange and it's best if they remain in the same position.

But if you're taking the wheel to a shop I'd expect them to want to use new spokes. Otherwise they can't really vouch for the quality of the finished product since they have no way of knowing the past history of the spokes. So they may not want to take a chance that you start having problems with the wheels later on.

mrrabbit 

https://www.mrrabbit.net/wheelsbyflemingapplications.php

Grab the spreadsheet...use "rimchart" to compare the ERD's of your two rims.

=8-)

davidad

Isn't it amazing how much a job interferes with life?
There will be some leeway in the spokes as long as the ERD of the new rim is close to the old. A perfect build would have the wheel true and at maximum tension and the end of the spoke even with the top of the nipple. It ain't necessary.

time bandit

The spokes are 21 years old, there are dents in the rim, and you're not replacing with the exact same rim?

just get a measurement and use brand new, correct length spokes. Seriously. do it. it's worth it.

Fred Smedley

https://lenni.info/edd/

1saxman

The bike is over 20 years old - the original rims are basically not available

operator

Id heed this and take a real good look at those spokes before wasting labour on undoing every spoke and relacing it to a new rim. That's 2x a regular wheelbuild labour and if the spokes suck you are just wasting your time. Otherwise given the low miles I would probably say to re-use those spokes, if they are the correct length. And yes to what that other poster said it's about +/- 2mm MAX.

Tunnelrat81

I recently rebuilt a front wheel and was able to re-use the spokes, HOWEVER, I was replacing the hub, not the rim. Variations in Hub flange sizes are quiet a bit more lenient than rim ERD's. It's not a matter of safety if the spokes are in good shape and never gave indication of being poorly built originally, but you'll have a heck of a time trying to match a rim to the ERD of the existing one. You'd have to first unlace the entire wheel (of course noting the cross pattern etc. in the original build) and then make some ERD measuring tools out of a couple of extra (not from this wheelset) spokes. Take very careful measurements of the existing rim's ERD and then hope and pray that something similar exists on the market. If nothing exists similarly, you could *maybe* play with the spoke calculators to see if lacing the new wheel 4x instead of 3x would give you a match to rim on the market also, but that's going to be a stretch also, and assumes the overall spoke count is high enough to allow 4x lacing without crossing heads etc.

Spokes are about a buck a piece for really good ones (DT Swiss Competition double butted 14-15-14) which are going to be better than what you have. So the extra $64 or $72 dollars for the entire wheel build isn't outrageous in the greater scheme of things. If properly built (and this unfortunately is a big IF) you'll have an absolutely solid wheelset that will provide years and years of trouble free use, and the extra $ will be very quickly forgotten.

-Jeremy

1saxman

I had to think about this one, but you know what? I'm going to do it, at least on the front wheel and see how it turns out. What a novel idea. It also keeps the spokes oriented to the hub exactly the same, which is also desirable. If it works and I can rough-in the truing, I'll take it in for final tensioning/truing. If it doesn't work out in my case, I'm only a couple hours labor in the hole, and my labor is cheap! Then I'll have to just have the wheels built on my old hubs. Probably cost as much as a new wheelset, but I'm trying to save the old Suntour components.

aixaix 

Makes sense to me to lace on a new rim. Common practice back in the day. As far as the ERD is concerned, if the measurements of the inside diameter of the rims are less than 1/8" different each other, and there isn't anything very different in the hole (thick ferrule vs no ferrule, e.g.), it'll work. Obviously, if you are going from a rim which has the spokes barely engaging the nipples to a larger one you will have a problem., Conversely, if the spokes are sticking out of the nipples some way on the original and the rim you want to use is smaller, you may run out of thread before the wheel is tensioned, or poke holes in your inner tube. As you said, all you risk is your time.

dabac

On some crude-ugly-and-cheap bike resurrections I've done I've used washers to compensate for slightly overlong spokes. It's one of those options that look good when shops are closed and you want to get done with the project.

bobdell

Overlong spokes can just be ground down with a dremel.

dabac

Grinding down the protruding bit won't help if you're running out of threads before reaching decent tension. Adding a washer will.

mrrabbit 

Just had to use washers last week on a cruiser wheel with 2.6mm (105 guage) spokes to deal with the poke-thru and thread run-out problem. Wheel turned out fine.

=8-)

1saxman

'Originally Posted by fietsbob
Equivalent Diameter is the spoke head nipple seat. varies with the extrusion profile.
Identical rims are easy to swap .
I just tape the old one and the new one along side each other, de-tension the spokes
a portion of a turn at a time..
and move them one at a time to the matching hole in the new rim,
refresh the anti-seize on the threads, then put the nipple on.

Wow. This is the coolest thing I have ever done to a bike. I thought about it and tried to make it difficult, but it isn't. Obviously this can only work in very narrow circumstances, but 'transferring' the spoked hub from one rim to another by this method WITHOUT ANY LACING INVOLVED is fantastic! I simply de-tensioned the old wheel without any particular caution - just loosen the nipples until you can turn them by hand. Tape the rims together - I used 'friction tape' and didn't try to immobilze the wheels - a little play will help. I laid the assembled rim/wheel on a flat working surface with the new rim on top, and started transferring the spokes, just tightening the nipples enough to be sure of a positive 'grab' on the spokes. You can't mess this up and you do not have to consider the lacing scheme at all - you line up the valve holes (everything always starts at the valve holes) transfer all the top-side spokes by putting them into the spoke holes directly above each spoke in the old wheel, then the bottom-side. When you get through, you remove the tape and the old empty rim falls off, revealing the new wheel. I don't know why I find this so incredible - I guess its because I'm pretty sure I never would have thought of it myself, and I never heard of it before reading it here. I have not 'roughed-in' the wheels yet but I will, using a dishing gauge and wheel truing stand before I take it to the shop for 'truing'. I just want to make sure the spokes aren't too short, too long and that they have enough threads. I actually have built a few wheels that were usable but many years ago. If this all works out for me, I will have saved a ton by not buying a complete wheelset or paying to have the old hubs relaced into the new rims.

1saxman

Over the last few weeks I've been slowly finishing this bike and at the same time very carefully and deliberately working on the wheels. Until today I fully intended to take them in for truing, but after getting all the nipples literally 'finger tight', I got out my spoke wrench and decided to pull the drive side of the rear wheel in to approximately where it should be. I pulled the drive side in and left it loose. I guess what's really going on here is I don't want to be 'that guy' who walks into the LBS with a half-ast lacing job in each hand wanting them to fix it. So, I began the process of dishing the rear wheel, just using the dishing bar and no truing stand. I had pulled it in too far, and left those spokes alone as I tightened the other side, which I knew would also tighten the drive side as the hub moved over. The rear went so well that I did the front too, which actually was off center about a half inch when I started - so much for the built-in 'torque wrench' in my fingers .
Anyway, when I got done, I spun each wheel and realized that they were both starting to look good, and spoke tension had increased nicely. That's when it hit me that wheels were being born in my garage, and that I may very well be able to finish this job.
Tomorrow I'll dig out my truing stand and begin to finish these wheels . If it turns out that I get into trouble and can't get it right, at least the wheels will be close when I take them in, but at this point I really think it'll be okay. I have a pretty good concept of what happens when you turn a spoke wrench - about not trying to force the rim - about 1/4 turns - about the concept of moving the hub within the wheel rather than moving the rim - about equal tension within reasonable constraints, etc. Like I said, I have built wheels but many years ago.

1saxman

There be wheels here! I actually got them close enough to ride but took them in anyway for a pro job, which is what I got, and I'm very satisfied with the results. I got the Bridgestone all put-together and have had a few short rides, adjusting things and checking out a new saddle.
I guess I just got lucky with the ERDs. Again, many thanks to 'fietsbob' for the tip on spoke/hub transfer.