Are bike paths more dangerous than roads?
06-18-14, 07:11 AM
#126
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I've ridden the MUPS of Philadelphia and Delaware. Have not ridden any MUPS here in GA, but a close friend just rode a 'famous' one and reported on FB he wanted to "kill peeps" 
I can attest, that even though I posted in the +50 forum that I'm all somber about the recent deaths on the street, the fact that I've even been psudo attacked on the road with cagers opening their door on me, and the many calling my sexuality into question because I'm over 50 and felling spandy - I can safely say I prefer the dangers of the road to ANY MUPS. I've had to dodge rude peds, leashes of small bratty unpredictable dogs (and dodging dog mines), suicidal squirrels, gangster children, and poorly maintained paths. I even preferred and had more fun dealing with the INSANITY of downtown Philadelphia riding in traffic and LOVED IT (if your wondering why, see my profile, us old Chiefs in the Coast Guard are disaster gypsy's).
I also take issue with the carte blanche statement that any collision with a ped is the cyclist fault as a "loss of situational awareness" (as a military peep who's written way too many MISHAP REPORTS I can't STAND that phrase)... there's more and more sense of entitlement w/peds that causes erratic behavior as the above two posters stated
I can attest, that even though I posted in the +50 forum that I'm all somber about the recent deaths on the street, the fact that I've even been psudo attacked on the road with cagers opening their door on me, and the many calling my sexuality into question because I'm over 50 and felling spandy - I can safely say I prefer the dangers of the road to ANY MUPS. I've had to dodge rude peds, leashes of small bratty unpredictable dogs (and dodging dog mines), suicidal squirrels, gangster children, and poorly maintained paths. I even preferred and had more fun dealing with the INSANITY of downtown Philadelphia riding in traffic and LOVED IT (if your wondering why, see my profile, us old Chiefs in the Coast Guard are disaster gypsy's). I also take issue with the carte blanche statement that any collision with a ped is the cyclist fault as a "loss of situational awareness" (as a military peep who's written way too many MISHAP REPORTS I can't STAND that phrase)... there's more and more sense of entitlement w/peds that causes erratic behavior as the above two posters stated
I find that what works for me, most of the time, is to use my nice loud 50g bell. 99% of the time, people will shift to the right, and I pass on the left. If they don't move or turn and look, then a better phrase then "ON THE LEFT", is to say "PLEASE KEEP RIGHT", when people hear left, they generally go left, when they hear right, they generally move right. Of course when you ring the bell you should be getting your fingers on the brakes, when you yell, you should be feathering off speed. If they are still not positioning themselves properly, then keep reducing your speed. There will be times, where the safest thing to do, is to walk your bike past the "meat pylon(s)", then get back on and go.
I would much rather be .002km/h slower and end the ride the way I planned, then crash into someone and end up on the side of the trail, bleeding with broken bones or ending up visiting the city mortuary as a patient. Hey I get it, some guys want to go really fast, Google velodromes in your city, province or state, get together with a few high speed friends, rent some track bikes and the facility for a few hours and go to town. It will be safer, and it will keep you separated from the pedestrians, dog walkers, joggers and those of us on slower bikes.
Now around here, more and more trails are being marked maximum 20km/h (12MPH) and that solves some of the issues, it's a city bylaw and where it's signed, the local police and bylaw enforcement can ticket you for exceeding it, even if you do not have a bike computer.
06-18-14, 09:03 AM
#127
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There are TWO parties involved in a collision, it is up to each party to do their part in avoiding said collision. Most people, even pedestrians are familiar with the rules of the road, that is keep to the right. This is ingrained into our society, my 2½ year old is going through this now, which ways to look when crossing the street. It make sense then to generally keep to the right on MUPs and most people do.
I find that what works for me, most of the time, is to use my nice loud 50g bell. 99% of the time, people will shift to the right, and I pass on the left. If they don't move or turn and look, then a better phrase then "ON THE LEFT", is to say "PLEASE KEEP RIGHT", when people hear left, they generally go left, when they hear right, they generally move right. Of course when you ring the bell you should be getting your fingers on the brakes, when you yell, you should be feathering off speed. If they are still not positioning themselves properly, then keep reducing your speed. There will be times, where the safest thing to do, is to walk your bike past the "meat pylon(s)", then get back on and go.
I would much rather be .002km/h slower and end the ride the way I planned, then crash into someone and end up on the side of the trail, bleeding with broken bones or ending up visiting the city mortuary as a patient. Hey I get it, some guys want to go really fast, Google velodromes in your city, province or state, get together with a few high speed friends, rent some track bikes and the facility for a few hours and go to town. It will be safer, and it will keep you separated from the pedestrians, dog walkers, joggers and those of us on slower bikes.
Now around here, more and more trails are being marked maximum 20km/h (12MPH) and that solves some of the issues, it's a city bylaw and where it's signed, the local police and bylaw enforcement can ticket you for exceeding it, even if you do not have a bike computer.
I find that what works for me, most of the time, is to use my nice loud 50g bell. 99% of the time, people will shift to the right, and I pass on the left. If they don't move or turn and look, then a better phrase then "ON THE LEFT", is to say "PLEASE KEEP RIGHT", when people hear left, they generally go left, when they hear right, they generally move right. Of course when you ring the bell you should be getting your fingers on the brakes, when you yell, you should be feathering off speed. If they are still not positioning themselves properly, then keep reducing your speed. There will be times, where the safest thing to do, is to walk your bike past the "meat pylon(s)", then get back on and go.
I would much rather be .002km/h slower and end the ride the way I planned, then crash into someone and end up on the side of the trail, bleeding with broken bones or ending up visiting the city mortuary as a patient. Hey I get it, some guys want to go really fast, Google velodromes in your city, province or state, get together with a few high speed friends, rent some track bikes and the facility for a few hours and go to town. It will be safer, and it will keep you separated from the pedestrians, dog walkers, joggers and those of us on slower bikes.
Now around here, more and more trails are being marked maximum 20km/h (12MPH) and that solves some of the issues, it's a city bylaw and where it's signed, the local police and bylaw enforcement can ticket you for exceeding it, even if you do not have a bike computer.
06-18-14, 10:09 AM
#128
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I'm not sure I want a speeding ticket for going 15 in a 12 on a bikepath. No bragging rights in that. However, some day I want a real, genuine, bona fide speeding ticket for going too fast in town. That I will frame and hang in my shop.
06-18-14, 11:19 AM
#129
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I think the subject line is misleading.
Are Bike Paths more dangerous? No, but MUPS are if your intent is to ride at a speed triple that of the typical jogger.
On the roads we are concerned that at 15-20 mph we are operating at 1/3 to 1/2 the speed of much heavier vehicles that place us at risk. On a MUPS, WE are the more dangerous vehicles and we need to operate under the principles we would ask the car drivers to around us.
The typical jogger is running at a pace of 5-6 mph. A road bike at a casual pace can easily sustain 15-18mph and with not much effort most of us can push well over 20mph.
I see this ALL the time as I use MUPS quite often both as a runner and a cyclist. At the end of the day, yes, the MUPS are dangerous for a the cyclist training for speed. If you are riding a pace over 15mph, you have no business being on a MUPS that is well traveled for other uses. That said, most MUPS have times and locations that are just fine (Silver Comet in GA west of Cobb County is for the most part just fine during the week, and for much of the weekend. But again, it falls on us to make smart decisions about how we ride.
Are Bike Paths more dangerous? No, but MUPS are if your intent is to ride at a speed triple that of the typical jogger.
On the roads we are concerned that at 15-20 mph we are operating at 1/3 to 1/2 the speed of much heavier vehicles that place us at risk. On a MUPS, WE are the more dangerous vehicles and we need to operate under the principles we would ask the car drivers to around us.
The typical jogger is running at a pace of 5-6 mph. A road bike at a casual pace can easily sustain 15-18mph and with not much effort most of us can push well over 20mph.
I see this ALL the time as I use MUPS quite often both as a runner and a cyclist. At the end of the day, yes, the MUPS are dangerous for a the cyclist training for speed. If you are riding a pace over 15mph, you have no business being on a MUPS that is well traveled for other uses. That said, most MUPS have times and locations that are just fine (Silver Comet in GA west of Cobb County is for the most part just fine during the week, and for much of the weekend. But again, it falls on us to make smart decisions about how we ride.
06-18-14, 11:21 AM
#130
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For what it's worth, I have that ticket. 43 in a 25. I deserved it, and being honest, without it, I probably would have put others at risk with that behavior had I not gotten it.
06-18-14, 11:44 AM
#131
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I think the subject line is misleading.
Are Bike Paths more dangerous? No, but MUPS are if your intent is to ride at a speed triple that of the typical jogger.
On the roads we are concerned that at 15-20 mph we are operating at 1/3 to 1/2 the speed of much heavier vehicles that place us at risk. On a MUPS, WE are the more dangerous vehicles and we need to operate under the principles we would ask the car drivers to around us.
The typical jogger is running at a pace of 5-6 mph. A road bike at a casual pace can easily sustain 15-18mph and with not much effort most of us can push well over 20mph.
I see this ALL the time as I use MUPS quite often both as a runner and a cyclist. At the end of the day, yes, the MUPS are dangerous for a the cyclist training for speed. If you are riding a pace over 15mph, you have no business being on a MUPS that is well traveled for other uses. That said, most MUPS have times and locations that are just fine (Silver Comet in GA west of Cobb County is for the most part just fine during the week, and for much of the weekend. But again, it falls on us to make smart decisions about how we ride.
Are Bike Paths more dangerous? No, but MUPS are if your intent is to ride at a speed triple that of the typical jogger.
On the roads we are concerned that at 15-20 mph we are operating at 1/3 to 1/2 the speed of much heavier vehicles that place us at risk. On a MUPS, WE are the more dangerous vehicles and we need to operate under the principles we would ask the car drivers to around us.
The typical jogger is running at a pace of 5-6 mph. A road bike at a casual pace can easily sustain 15-18mph and with not much effort most of us can push well over 20mph.
I see this ALL the time as I use MUPS quite often both as a runner and a cyclist. At the end of the day, yes, the MUPS are dangerous for a the cyclist training for speed. If you are riding a pace over 15mph, you have no business being on a MUPS that is well traveled for other uses. That said, most MUPS have times and locations that are just fine (Silver Comet in GA west of Cobb County is for the most part just fine during the week, and for much of the weekend. But again, it falls on us to make smart decisions about how we ride.
06-18-14, 05:14 PM
#133
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What's a good solution to the lane hogs? It seems like common sense to pull into one lane when another cyclist approaches, but I'm constantly hitting the brakes or hugging the edge of 'my' lane while people are chatting away, taking up most of the path. I almost got clobbered by someone jumping out to pass a long line of cyclists. The offenders are always kitted up, so they should know better.
I yell 'single file!' out of frustration, not sure if it does any good. It seems obviously rude to me, but then people will double up out on the road, which is really dangerous.
I yell 'single file!' out of frustration, not sure if it does any good. It seems obviously rude to me, but then people will double up out on the road, which is really dangerous.
06-19-14, 12:14 PM
#135
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Simple time/distance analysis works wonders some time. Bike moving at 15 mph or 22 fps/ps. Most folks perceive and react to a hazard in 1.6 seconds (1.6 seconds is industry standard and accounts for age and experience). Child runs into path. Bike moves 35 feet before braking (P/R distance) and then approx 25 feet to stop (depending on type of surface). Child is anywhere within the 60 feet.....child gets hit by bike/bike crashes trying to avoid or both. Now, lets say the bike is moving at 25 mph or 36 fps/ps. 57 feet to P/R and approx 35 feet to stop. If the obstruction is within 92 feet, you hit it. (braking distance estimates)
MUPS around these parts are 10-12 feet wide, some 6-8. I ride on MUPS all the time, very little time is spent on roads. My speed is determined by the activity on the MUP and I am ALWAYS prepared to stop and always thinking about avoidance as I come to an obstruction. This is under my control. When on the roadways you are at the mercy of the folks driving their cars while drinking their coffee, eating their donuts, talking/texting on the phone and in one multiple death case, putting on eyeliner. These I have no control over so I take my chances on the MUPS.
I often see cyclists, on road bikes, riding along at 20-25 mph. I often think how easily they or someone else can be injured because they are simply going to fast for the conditions and everyone else has rectal/cranial inversion.
Have to be careful and drive defensively, car, bike, motorcycle,skate board...etc.....
MUPS around these parts are 10-12 feet wide, some 6-8. I ride on MUPS all the time, very little time is spent on roads. My speed is determined by the activity on the MUP and I am ALWAYS prepared to stop and always thinking about avoidance as I come to an obstruction. This is under my control. When on the roadways you are at the mercy of the folks driving their cars while drinking their coffee, eating their donuts, talking/texting on the phone and in one multiple death case, putting on eyeliner. These I have no control over so I take my chances on the MUPS.
I often see cyclists, on road bikes, riding along at 20-25 mph. I often think how easily they or someone else can be injured because they are simply going to fast for the conditions and everyone else has rectal/cranial inversion.
Have to be careful and drive defensively, car, bike, motorcycle,skate board...etc.....
06-19-14, 12:27 PM
#136
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What's a good solution to the lane hogs? It seems like common sense to pull into one lane when another cyclist approaches, but I'm constantly hitting the brakes or hugging the edge of 'my' lane while people are chatting away, taking up most of the path. I almost got clobbered by someone jumping out to pass a long line of cyclists. The offenders are always kitted up, so they should know better.
I yell 'single file!' out of frustration, not sure if it does any good. It seems obviously rude to me, but then people will double up out on the road, which is really dangerous.
I yell 'single file!' out of frustration, not sure if it does any good. It seems obviously rude to me, but then people will double up out on the road, which is really dangerous.
06-19-14, 01:25 PM
#137
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Riding the Roanoke Greenway last evening, I came upon four folks, walking abreast, heading towards me. The two that were in "my lane" looked at me as I approached and made no effort whatsoever to move over and give me room to pass them. Even as I veered into the grass to get by, they simply looked at me and didn't budge.
Good reason to ride very slowly on MUP.
06-19-14, 01:57 PM
#138
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I get the Zax treatment myself occasionally.
On my better days, I try to view it as another facet of dealing with a cross section of humanity ... some of them are clueless, selfish, or both.
On my better days, I try to view it as another facet of dealing with a cross section of humanity ... some of them are clueless, selfish, or both.
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06-19-14, 06:56 PM
#139
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I increasingly simply avoid the local MUP. Too many stop signs to get a steady cadence going. Too many people of all sorts not paying attention and too many times I have been the one who was nearly the victim as a result of others actions. Of course, the second you head to a quiet country road somewhere, some idiot screams "Get off the road and go find a bike path!" at you....
06-19-14, 07:11 PM
#140
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I think they are at least just as dangerous..
I avoid certain parts of my local bike paths that have a lot of foot traffic.. Many times saying 'on your left' simply makes the people step to their left and right in front of you..
I've had almost as many accidents on bike paths as I have had on the road..
People don't bother reading the rules of the bike path, even though here at least, there are signs posted every so often.
Bike path dangers:
1) Clueless walkers
2) Clueless walkers with dogs
3) Clueless walkers with dogs who are not on a leash
4) A group of clueless walkers spread out and taking up the entire pathway
5) Parents who don't control or watch their children
6) Skateboarders with headphones in swerving all over the pathway..
7) Crazy freaking squirrels who want to try and jump through your spokes.
I can go on and on but you get the idea.. I really do not like taking any of the bike paths locally.. Some areas of the bike paths are further out and have less foot traffic..
I avoid certain parts of my local bike paths that have a lot of foot traffic.. Many times saying 'on your left' simply makes the people step to their left and right in front of you..
I've had almost as many accidents on bike paths as I have had on the road..
People don't bother reading the rules of the bike path, even though here at least, there are signs posted every so often.
Bike path dangers:
1) Clueless walkers
2) Clueless walkers with dogs
3) Clueless walkers with dogs who are not on a leash
4) A group of clueless walkers spread out and taking up the entire pathway
5) Parents who don't control or watch their children
6) Skateboarders with headphones in swerving all over the pathway..
7) Crazy freaking squirrels who want to try and jump through your spokes.
I can go on and on but you get the idea.. I really do not like taking any of the bike paths locally.. Some areas of the bike paths are further out and have less foot traffic..
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06-20-14, 07:36 PM
#141
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Just back from a very nice walk along the river on a trail/sidewalk combo that is also designated as a bike route. There were two of us walking side by side enjoying our lattes and chatting between ourselves and others on the path.
First bike came up behind us and said "beep, beep". From the tone it was very close. We ducked just in time for a road bike and rider to come steaming past on the right. Fortunately my companion had moved left so no collision.
Second was a pair of bikes coming from behind. A distance back one rider said "like to pass on the left". Then they slowly passed us on the left waving and smiling as they did. Both were on city bikes. Absolutely safe and courteous for all four of us.
What a contrast. And it all rotated around communication and courtesy.
First bike came up behind us and said "beep, beep". From the tone it was very close. We ducked just in time for a road bike and rider to come steaming past on the right. Fortunately my companion had moved left so no collision.
Second was a pair of bikes coming from behind. A distance back one rider said "like to pass on the left". Then they slowly passed us on the left waving and smiling as they did. Both were on city bikes. Absolutely safe and courteous for all four of us.
What a contrast. And it all rotated around communication and courtesy.
06-20-14, 08:37 PM
#142
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One vote for bike paths are safer. Not without danger tape ask,times, obviously.
06-20-14, 10:44 PM
#143
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06-21-14, 01:49 PM
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Riding the Roanoke Greenway last evening, I came upon four folks, walking abreast, heading towards me. The two that were in "my lane" looked at me as I approached and made no effort whatsoever to move over and give me room to pass them. Even as I veered into the grass to get by, they simply looked at me and didn't budge.
06-21-14, 02:21 PM
#146
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Now around here, more and more trails are being marked maximum 20km/h (12MPH) and that solves some of the issues, it's a city bylaw and where it's signed, the local police and bylaw enforcement can ticket you for exceeding it, even if you do not have a bike computer.
We must be riding in different parts of Toronto Wogster - the limit on the Don Valley Trail was recently lowered from 20 to 15 kph, it's 15 with speed bumps on the road - width trail on the Leslie Street Spit, and 10 kph through Mount Pleasant Cemetery. That would feel like riding backwards. These routes are all pretty quiet if you get out early in the morning - I confess to exceeding these limits most of the time and I have never been stopped. Some of our trails separate pedestrians from cyclists and that works pretty well.
When you live in the inner part of a large city it's difficult to get an enjoyable ride unless you drive your bike out to the countryside. I make use of the trails for the most part but it's not ideal.
We must be riding in different parts of Toronto Wogster - the limit on the Don Valley Trail was recently lowered from 20 to 15 kph, it's 15 with speed bumps on the road - width trail on the Leslie Street Spit, and 10 kph through Mount Pleasant Cemetery. That would feel like riding backwards. These routes are all pretty quiet if you get out early in the morning - I confess to exceeding these limits most of the time and I have never been stopped. Some of our trails separate pedestrians from cyclists and that works pretty well.
When you live in the inner part of a large city it's difficult to get an enjoyable ride unless you drive your bike out to the countryside. I make use of the trails for the most part but it's not ideal.
06-22-14, 05:54 AM
#148
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Now around here, more and more trails are being marked maximum 20km/h (12MPH) and that solves some of the issues, it's a city bylaw and where it's signed, the local police and bylaw enforcement can ticket you for exceeding it, even if you do not have a bike computer.
We must be riding in different parts of Toronto Wogster - the limit on the Don Valley Trail was recently lowered from 20 to 15 kph, it's 15 with speed bumps on the road - width trail on the Leslie Street Spit, and 10 kph through Mount Pleasant Cemetery. That would feel like riding backwards. These routes are all pretty quiet if you get out early in the morning - I confess to exceeding these limits most of the time and I have never been stopped. Some of our trails separate pedestrians from cyclists and that works pretty well.
When you live in the inner part of a large city it's difficult to get an enjoyable ride unless you drive your bike out to the countryside. I make use of the trails for the most part but it's not ideal.
We must be riding in different parts of Toronto Wogster - the limit on the Don Valley Trail was recently lowered from 20 to 15 kph, it's 15 with speed bumps on the road - width trail on the Leslie Street Spit, and 10 kph through Mount Pleasant Cemetery. That would feel like riding backwards. These routes are all pretty quiet if you get out early in the morning - I confess to exceeding these limits most of the time and I have never been stopped. Some of our trails separate pedestrians from cyclists and that works pretty well.
When you live in the inner part of a large city it's difficult to get an enjoyable ride unless you drive your bike out to the countryside. I make use of the trails for the most part but it's not ideal.
06-22-14, 09:03 AM
#149
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YES
Today I guy crashed because someone decided to make a u turn on the path without any warning. He swerved and went over the handle bars. Luckily he wasn't hurt but his left 105 shifter was damaged.
Today I guy crashed because someone decided to make a u turn on the path without any warning. He swerved and went over the handle bars. Luckily he wasn't hurt but his left 105 shifter was damaged.
06-23-14, 03:16 PM
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Location: Northern NJ
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A cyclist drove past the sign and under the overpass at 15 mph today. Luckily no one was coming the other direction.
