Frames and Framebuilding (1978) Tange Prestige vs. Columbus SL
02-27-23, 11:15 AM
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Did I miss the part of the "study" that mentioned that the butts were the same lengths? Or why different wall thicknesses were chosen? Sometimes, I prefer apples to oranges. Sometimes not. Fun to read but we all know that, "The frame is the frame."
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02-27-23, 11:37 AM
#27
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Besides Surly and Ritchey who uses Tange in MTB and Road frame manufactures nowadays ? Not a single manufacturer, Scott, Wheeler, Specialized , Centurion, KHS and several other brands used Tange tubing from mid 80's till mid 90's late 90's but this era is long gone.
02-27-23, 12:18 PM
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Perhaps the most important and most overlooked takeaway from the article is the that author (and apparently the other tester) thinks that the differences between the two were slight enough that they could not have been detected in anything other that a direct A/B test. Put another way, good tubing in the hands of a good builder will yield a very nice-riding frame. The differences, while real, will likely be minor and you will likely be thrilled with either.
As for me, the best riding bike I have has a frame of Columbus SP. I don't know why and can't even adequately explain why I like it best other than it just feels a tad bit more "alive" to me. I know, that sounds a bit counter-intuitive from thicker walls, but my being 6'3" and 260 lbs probably has something to do with it. Someone lighter might think it is a dead-feeling slug.
I am fortunate enough to have some truly top-drawer frames, and the three that are my main riders are all really great. Any one of them would do very nicely if I could only have one. The SP frame is an A+, the other two solid A's; someone else could very well rank them differently. I don't know what the tubing is on either of the non-SP frames; I am not the original owner and there is no tubing sticker or other mark on them, except for a Vitus mark in the inside on one of the chainstays on one, and that builder is known for mixing and matching tubes. Frankly, I suspect the (slight) differences in geometry matters more than the tubing selection (within reason - there's only so much you can do to overcome the inherent disadvantages of gaspipe), and personal taste matters most of all. I have always taken the approach that if the tubing was good enough for a top-drawer builder, it's good enough for me.
As for me, the best riding bike I have has a frame of Columbus SP. I don't know why and can't even adequately explain why I like it best other than it just feels a tad bit more "alive" to me. I know, that sounds a bit counter-intuitive from thicker walls, but my being 6'3" and 260 lbs probably has something to do with it. Someone lighter might think it is a dead-feeling slug.
I am fortunate enough to have some truly top-drawer frames, and the three that are my main riders are all really great. Any one of them would do very nicely if I could only have one. The SP frame is an A+, the other two solid A's; someone else could very well rank them differently. I don't know what the tubing is on either of the non-SP frames; I am not the original owner and there is no tubing sticker or other mark on them, except for a Vitus mark in the inside on one of the chainstays on one, and that builder is known for mixing and matching tubes. Frankly, I suspect the (slight) differences in geometry matters more than the tubing selection (within reason - there's only so much you can do to overcome the inherent disadvantages of gaspipe), and personal taste matters most of all. I have always taken the approach that if the tubing was good enough for a top-drawer builder, it's good enough for me.
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02-27-23, 02:34 PM
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It's kinda funny that Mr. Uhte - the one who suggested the blind test - resorted to the 'everyone I've talked to preferred the Tange tubeset' comment even after both test riders came to the conclusion they preferred what turned out to be the Columbus SL bike.
Begs the question: then what was the point (from Mr. Uhte's POV) of doing a blind test? The riders reported their findings based on feel (as I assume the riders Mr. Uhte referenced purporting to prefer Tange did as well). Mr. Schubert even claimed in the article that he was sure the pink bike was built from Prestige, and was surprised to learn it was not.
On a separate note, Bicycle Guide did a similar blind test in the mid-90s. In that exercise, Mondonico built a total of 7 frames, all painted metallic green and outfitted identically, of the various Columbus tubesets available at that time. The only frame the test riders recognized before even riding was the Max tubeset - kinda hard to miss! IIRC, the differences detected were minimal - and of course, there were triple-plus-one opportunities to be both impressed - or confused!
@SpeedofLite Thanks for the article, it was an interesting read - and of course the pics of Bruce Gordon's immaculate work provided the proverbial icing on the cake.
DD
Begs the question: then what was the point (from Mr. Uhte's POV) of doing a blind test? The riders reported their findings based on feel (as I assume the riders Mr. Uhte referenced purporting to prefer Tange did as well). Mr. Schubert even claimed in the article that he was sure the pink bike was built from Prestige, and was surprised to learn it was not.
On a separate note, Bicycle Guide did a similar blind test in the mid-90s. In that exercise, Mondonico built a total of 7 frames, all painted metallic green and outfitted identically, of the various Columbus tubesets available at that time. The only frame the test riders recognized before even riding was the Max tubeset - kinda hard to miss! IIRC, the differences detected were minimal - and of course, there were triple-plus-one opportunities to be both impressed - or confused!
@SpeedofLite Thanks for the article, it was an interesting read - and of course the pics of Bruce Gordon's immaculate work provided the proverbial icing on the cake.
DD
In fact, the guy who wrote the article said that he was surprised at the reveal after he had lumped together four of the anonymous framesets with respect to how they felt to ride: the Aelle, Cromor, Brain, and EL-OS frames. Quite an eye-opener, that.
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02-27-23, 02:57 PM
#30
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I am probably the #1 Tange fanboy, so keep that in mind...
Thanks to the gravel/allroad trend steel probably has the highest market share it's had since the 1990s, but you are correct. The late 20th century era of steel is gone. Tange is around and pops up as branded tubing in random places. I've been compiling dozens of brands worth of bikes for my weight spreadsheet (in the modern era) and I think that the only tubing marquee that stands above is Reynolds. They have branded tubesets in probably the most and widest range of bikes. "House brand" (think about how much steel QBP uses in their catalog of brands) would probably be next, Columbus and Tange a distant third and forth.
Charge made Tange MTB frames in the late-2000s/mid-2010s. Jamis as well. Soma makes their whole line with Tange - Road/MTB/Gravel/Cross. Forks too. Panasonic has a frameshop in Osaka that uses Tange on a fair number of their models for frames and forks. Definitely not a huge market, or even easy to find who uses what. The saddest thing to me is the loss of the tubing mystique as a selling point. Might not have been a big difference, or a difference at all, but it added another layer to the product that was interesting to engage.
I researched Tange extensively last year and from what I understand they manufacture a huge amount of tubing for other brands, while a relatively small portion is used for branded Tange product. They still make thinwall tubing (Prestige Japan) and through their frame shop (same as Panasonic? Idk) will make a standard diameter road frame with stock geometry for ~250,000¥; sans paint/shipping, made in Japan.
Modern Tange sees itself as the same company, with direct lineage to the Tange brand that went defunct in the late 1990s. Probably because they still have a presence in Japan and make the same stuff despite the bulk of product manufacturing taking place in Taiwan.
IME, the differences in a direct back-to-back test are indicative of the larger differences that become apparent as the bike is ridden long. Always, a bike I like just a little more on the comparison ride, I'm going to like a lot more weeks and hundreds of miles later. Which now has me wondering where I can find a nice all-road SL frame.
Thanks to the gravel/allroad trend steel probably has the highest market share it's had since the 1990s, but you are correct. The late 20th century era of steel is gone. Tange is around and pops up as branded tubing in random places. I've been compiling dozens of brands worth of bikes for my weight spreadsheet (in the modern era) and I think that the only tubing marquee that stands above is Reynolds. They have branded tubesets in probably the most and widest range of bikes. "House brand" (think about how much steel QBP uses in their catalog of brands) would probably be next, Columbus and Tange a distant third and forth.
Charge made Tange MTB frames in the late-2000s/mid-2010s. Jamis as well. Soma makes their whole line with Tange - Road/MTB/Gravel/Cross. Forks too. Panasonic has a frameshop in Osaka that uses Tange on a fair number of their models for frames and forks. Definitely not a huge market, or even easy to find who uses what. The saddest thing to me is the loss of the tubing mystique as a selling point. Might not have been a big difference, or a difference at all, but it added another layer to the product that was interesting to engage.
I researched Tange extensively last year and from what I understand they manufacture a huge amount of tubing for other brands, while a relatively small portion is used for branded Tange product. They still make thinwall tubing (Prestige Japan) and through their frame shop (same as Panasonic? Idk) will make a standard diameter road frame with stock geometry for ~250,000¥; sans paint/shipping, made in Japan.
Modern Tange sees itself as the same company, with direct lineage to the Tange brand that went defunct in the late 1990s. Probably because they still have a presence in Japan and make the same stuff despite the bulk of product manufacturing taking place in Taiwan.
IME, the differences in a direct back-to-back test are indicative of the larger differences that become apparent as the bike is ridden long. Always, a bike I like just a little more on the comparison ride, I'm going to like a lot more weeks and hundreds of miles later. Which now has me wondering where I can find a nice all-road SL frame.
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02-28-23, 02:31 AM
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"The frame will almost certainly be lugged...and if at all possible it should be of double-butted tubing such as Reynolds, Columbus, Tange, Ishiwata, or Vitus. (At production-line level, one is about as good as another; it takes a custom builder to do anything meaningful with the differences.)."
William Sanders, The Bicycle Racing Book (Domas Books, 1979), 30.
DD
02-28-23, 04:56 AM
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EL-OS was, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to spot.
02-28-23, 05:20 AM
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Sorry to be a pedant, but MAX wasn't used in the article: https://www.habcycles.com/m7-5.jpg
EL-OS was, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to spot.
EL-OS was, which probably wouldn't have been too hard to spot.
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02-28-23, 08:23 AM
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02-28-23, 09:40 AM
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In that case, Columbus missed a golden opportunity to produce an MTB-specific tubeset named 'MAD MAX' 
DD
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02-28-23, 11:49 AM
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02-28-23, 12:08 PM
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It took a long while for someone to mention Soma, as a brand that still uses Tange. I absolutely love my Soma Saga touring bike, which used Prestige tubes, and an Infinity fork. It's just one of those bikes that does everything well. At least in my opinion. 😎
I wonder how BG likes her Prestige-tubed road bike, that she was working on over Christmas. 🤔
