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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Old 02-24-24, 05:48 PM
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waters60
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Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

Seems like a pretty damning indictment of this technology…
Grabbing my popcorn!
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Old 02-24-24, 06:12 PM
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I heard Primoz Roglic is no fan of popcorn. Seems like a pretty damning indictment of this snack food.
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Old 02-24-24, 06:24 PM
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Froome didn't like disc brakes. Everyone has a opinion. Just like us here at BF, I'm not sure why we should expect all the pro's to agree.
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Old 02-24-24, 08:33 PM
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Fault of the mechanic or team leadership?
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Old 02-24-24, 10:29 PM
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He went down hard, not Adam Yates hard but still pretty damn hard.

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Old 02-25-24, 12:04 AM
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One incident that hasn't been fully investigated yet is a damning indictment of an entire technology that has been in use by the peloton and available in the marketplace for several years now?
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Old 02-25-24, 12:20 AM
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He's not wrong. There's no benefit for the rider in hookless but there are plenty of disadvantages, like the greatly reduced ability of the rim to hold the tire in place.

Hookless rims are a lot cheaper to produce so there's that.
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Old 02-25-24, 01:54 AM
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Decent balanced analysis https://escapecollective.com/thomas-...arning-to-all/
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Old 02-25-24, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by choddo
Talk about a can of worms! If a pro team mechanic cannot figure out the mismatch and potential problems such as experienced by DeGent, are mere mortals supposed to absorb all of this information and get the correct combination that will prevent an unprovoked crash such as he experienced. At least I know I won’t have this trouble with my securely mounted Veloflex tubulars!
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Old 02-25-24, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by choddo
For these reasons I prefer to stick with hooked rims. I don’t see any compelling advantage with hookless rims to make them worth the risk, however small it may be.
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Old 02-25-24, 07:30 AM
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Also as it would seem, the ISO standard of tire and rim combinations prevents one getting within the 105% rule, which harms any aero claims hookless might have.

The article did mention the 105% isn't important, but I didn't see any meaningful info why that may be. Just a claim by some random person. Whereas I believe Zipp did quite a bit of research back in the day to arrive to the 105 number.
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Old 02-25-24, 07:38 AM
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Face plants will do that.....
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Old 02-25-24, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio

The article did mention the 105% isn't important, but I didn't see any meaningful info why that may be. Just a claim by some random person. Whereas I believe Zipp did quite a bit of research back in the day to arrive to the 105 number.
In fairness, JP Ballard is not just some random guy. I don’t know what he actually claimed regarding the “105% rule”, but aero rules of thumb like this are rarely universal. I guess you would have to listen to the quoted podcast to understand more.
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Old 02-25-24, 07:58 AM
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I've run early model Michelin tubeless 28mm tires that aren't hookless approved on 25mm IW hookless rims with no problems. The last one was taken out of service because the bead had stretched so much that it unseated when the air was let out to check the sealant level and would no longer stay seated long enough to reinstall the valve core. I now use Pirelli P-Zero TLR tubeless that are approved for hookless and 28mm tires are rated OK for 25mm IW rims. Regardless of what ETRTO says, follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

I've had the Pirelli tires mounted on a bike for a year and moved the front to the back for another year with no problems.
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Old 02-25-24, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
Also as it would seem, the ISO standard of tire and rim combinations prevents one getting within the 105% rule, which harms any aero claims hookless might have.

The article did mention the 105% isn't important, but I didn't see any meaningful info why that may be. Just a claim by some random person. Whereas I believe Zipp did quite a bit of research back in the day to arrive to the 105 number.
Zipp says that their 23mm IW 303s wheels are optimized for 28mm tires. Mine worked fine for two years, but I recently sold them to get rid of rim tape. Their 25mm IW rims also work with most 28mm and wider tires.

I now have 3 sets of BTLOS hookless wheels, all 25mm IW, with no rim tape needed. I'm running 28mm front and 30mm rear at the same 50-55 psi pressure.
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Old 02-25-24, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Zipp says that their 23mm IW 303s wheels are optimized for 28mm tires. Mine worked fine for two years, but I recently sold them to get rid of rim tape. Their 25mm IW rims also work with most 28mm and wider tires.

I now have 3 sets of BTLOS hookless wheels, all 25mm IW, with no rim tape needed. I'm running 28mm front and 30mm rear at the same 50-55 psi pressure.
Do you find any advantage from hookless? I assume they're supposed to be a bit easier to seat?
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Old 02-25-24, 10:34 AM
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It seems the obvious solution is that we should all use the exact same technology and everything must be cross compatible with everything else. Then there'd be no question what so ever as to what is better. <sarcasm> <grin>
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Old 02-25-24, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by waters60
Seems like a pretty damning indictment of this technology…
Grabbing my popcorn!
Are we 100% certain that the incident was caused by the fact that the rim is hookless?

This is the first thing I want to know before even considering to argue on the whole hookless thing. I've owned 2 sets of hookless rims in the last 5 years and my experience was positive.
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Old 02-25-24, 10:45 AM
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I've been around cycling since 1971 and have very fond memories of hookless rims. What a treat they were to deal with when mated to the wrong tire. Then I discovered hooked rims around 1978 and was disappointed that just about any tire made in the appropriate diameter was able to be installed with ease and that they stayed put on the rim, even at high pressures!
WTF is wrong with the bike industry and better yet, what is wrong with the consumers who insist on following the pull on their ring noses?
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Old 02-25-24, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by eduskator
Are we 100% certain that the incident was caused by the fact that the rim is hookless?

This is the first thing I want to know before even considering to argue on the whole hookless thing. I've owned 2 sets of hookless rims in the last 5 years and my experience was positive.
No
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Old 02-25-24, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
For these reasons I prefer to stick with hooked rims. I don’t see any compelling advantage with hookless rims to make them worth the risk, however small it may be.
In additional to those reasons, I am chubby (90 kg) and cannot comply with hookless tire pressure maximum limits.
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Old 02-25-24, 02:47 PM
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I think someone else mentioned it, but could we have a rundown on the advantages of hookless for the rider?
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Old 02-25-24, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
I think someone else mentioned it, but could we have a rundown on the advantages of hookless for the rider?
From the rider's point of view, you mean? In previous threads on the topic, the main one seemed to be the theoretical weight savings. A figure of 50 grams per wheel tended to be mentioned. That's about it for tangible advantages, maybe.

From the company's point of view, the overwhelming advantage is much reduced fabrication cost, owing to the difficulty of devising molds to produce carbon rims with hooks. It's telling that modern hookless rims didn't exist until carbon rims began dominating the upper end of the bike market.

Edit: just did a quick search - a page on the Hunt Wheels website includes the following:

"From our development of hookless rims, we saw clear weight savings (about 10-15g lighter per rim) for the same profile and dimensions, when compared to hooked. There's also a cost reduction owing to a simpler manufacturing process, which we passed on to the rider."

Last edited by Trakhak; 02-25-24 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 02-25-24, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
From the rider's point of view, you mean? In previous threads on the topic, the main one seemed to be the theoretical weight savings. A figure of 50 grams per wheel tended to be mentioned. That's about it for tangible advantages, maybe.

From the company's point of view, the overwhelming advantage is much reduced fabrication cost, owing to the difficulty of devising molds to produce carbon rims with hooks. It's telling that modern hookless rims didn't exist until carbon rims began dominating the upper end of the bike market.

Edit: just did a quick search - a page on the Hunt Wheels website includes the following:

"From our development of hookless rims, we saw clear weight savings (about 10-15g lighter per rim) for the same profile and dimensions, when compared to hooked. There's also a cost reduction owing to a simpler manufacturing process, which we passed on to the rider."
Thanks.

I remember now the PZMET? person talking about them in detail some time ago. So, there's a thread on here with a lot of info.

Last edited by seypat; 02-25-24 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 02-25-24, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak

"From our development of hookless rims, we saw clear weight savings (about 10-15g lighter per rim) for the same profile and dimensions, when compared to hooked. There's also a cost reduction owing to a simpler manufacturing process, which we passed on to the rider."
Really not worth anything then at this point then. I can see why the manufacturers are keen, but I don't see any win for the rider. Be interesting to see if they keep pushing this direction or not. Not all manufacturers seem convinced.
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