Dockhead

My trusty old Dahon Jetstream EX has supported my car-free lifestyle for years by now, including transporting me for my twice-weekly 30km commute to another city via ferry. I've worn out a bottom bracket, several chains and several sets of tyres, other bits and bobs, but the bike is still solid and good and I've never had a bit of trouble with the SRAM Dual Drive drivetrain. It has no racks at all (full suspension), but whenever I need to haul stuff I take a carshare or taxi. A cheap, good, and healthy lifestyle, I would say.

Now though it's time gain some range for shopping and doing other stuff and after buying my GF a Zundapp e-bike, I've decided I need one myself. But I'm struggling to decide which one. A bike I've admired for a long time is the Tern HSD. 20" wheels like my Jetstream, which is a known quantity, and tons of carrying capacity. Love the vertical storage and folding stem so easy to store and transport. Only 400wh of battery, though, and a low spec Bosch drive system. And quite expensive. Hmm.

Then I discovered the KTM Macina Multi Urban, which is a similar idea but with 24" wheels which is appealing. No suspension fork, but the Tern HSD only has a coil fork with 2" of travel so I don't think much difference. A better spec motor with Bosch Smart System and slightly bigger battery, and even more carrying capacity, for less money. https://www.ktm-bikes.at/e-bikes/det...ano-nexus-2023 A nice looking bike and all the rackage is included in the modest price. Belt drive (which I really want) and Shimano hub gears.

But what if I skip the cargo bike idea and use a trailer for bigger shopping trips? Then I could do something like a Cube Kathmandu Hybrid EXC 750. https://www.bike-discount.de/en/cube...50-red-n-black. Much cheaper than the cargo bikes, much higher spec, with the top Bosch CX drive with Smart System and much bigger battery (750wh). A really good long travel air fork. There are similar bikes with full suspension which are still not more expensive than the cargo bikes. Just pull a trailer when I need to haul a week's worth of groceries etc.

What do you guys think? I'm particularly interested in experiences of people with car-free lifestyles.

Dockhead

Then there's always something like the Riese & Müller Multicharger. With the Rohloff hub (yum!) and belt drive, it costs an eye-watering €8.5k, more than twice other variants. Without significantly better components other than the Rohloff. But oh so nice, and perfect for my use case. Just hard to justify the €€€.

Rick_D

Before I went in a different direction I'd zeroed in on the Gazelle C380. Bosch mid-drive motor, belt drive, CVT rear hub, very nice build quality and components.

https://www.gazellebikes.com/en-us/g...rame=frame-mid

For a bit less, Priority Current E-bike is similar mid-drive with belt and your choice of Alfine or Enviolo CVT hub. I have not, however, seen these in person. Anecdotally they're good bikes well priced.

https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/current

Good luck!

roadcrankr

You did not mention some important info, like where you live, if your rides involve hills, heaving a heavy bike up stairs, etc.
You might look into a Swytch Max conversion to use on your Dahon. About $700 with a spare battery. Adds under ten pounds total.
They would send you a second charger with the extra battery. You could keep that charger at work.

veganbikes

+1 on the Ultimate C380+ a great bike. Though Tern also makes some great stuff as well the GSD S00 or better yet R14 are awesome a bit bigger but more capacity and dual battery compatible.

My favorite bike is the Riese und Müller Supercharger2 Rohloff but I am maybe a tiny bit biased as I own one and have put nearly 5k on it in about 3 years and could have put more on but last year I lost a bunch of months of riding. Not a ton of cargo capacity necessarily but does well for my daily commutes and I have the little adapter for carrying a trailer should I need that but I have the front rack and have large capacity panniers and can put a rack top bag on top. They also make the MultiTinker which is a Tern GSD type bike but a little nicer and the MultiCharger which is essentially a longer tail version of my bike. And if you really want to carry cargo they have my absolute favorite the Load which is a full suspension front loader and another one that they have rereleased, the Packster which I think now can be set up with a full suspension set up.

You have picked well with Bosch, it is harder to go wrong with a Bosch bike even if the other components aren't great and the Bosch is bottom end it is still good quality well supported stuff. I wouldn't go for an Active Line motor personally but if I was truly budgetary challenged and couldn't save up and as long as I wasn't buying a Trek I would still be in decent enough shape compared to some of these no-name motors or bikes with poorer support.

Dockhead

THanks!

Dockhead

OK, so I live between Tallinn and Helsinki, have to deal with significant hills, live on the 3rd floor but with a good elevator, and bike room in the building. One big attraction of the Tern HSD is the compact storage stood up on its tail, in which position you can also easily manage it in elevators. Big plus. Not sure if the KTM also does that.

As to electric conversion of my Jetstream -- it's a full suspension bike without any real possibility to put a rack on it so I don't think this is going to do. I need to at least be able to haul groceries. A full sized SUV type bike would work if I had a trailer for bigger tasks, or a semi-cargo bike like HSD, or the KTM Multi Urban. The R&M Multicharger seems like a perfect balance between these two but it's awfully hard to justify the price.

Dockhead

Then there's this: https://www.vaastbikes.eu/e1 and here: https://www.vaastbikes.eu/model-e-1-rohloff/
Full suspension bike (unlike all the others I'm looking at), and with an extremely cool rear suspension setup.
Good racks and carrying
Does not have the top CX Bosch motor.
But it has ROHLOFF [drool]
With the very low bottom gear in the Rohloff, the more powerful CX motor might not be needed (and battery will last longer).
It's being sold by one German dealer on Ebay for €5800, so €2.5k less than the comparable Riese & Müller, which has the top Bosch motor but no rear suspension.
This is intriguing. My Jetstream has a high end full suspension on it which I'm very grateful for (cobblestones, curbstones, etc.), but it's more important with the little 20" wheels, than it would be in this application.

Dockhead

Correction to the last post -- it does have Performance CX and 85nm, just no Smart System. Which is weird -- I guess they were using up old motors. I'm not sure I care -- sounds like an awesome bike.

Smaug1

I think I would go a different direction entirely and go for a Lectric Xpedition. You're focusing on fancy high-spec, high $$$ stuff, but they're mechanically complex. The nice thing about the Lectric is that it has the motor in the hub, which keeps the drivetrain simple; there's no extra torque applied to the regular bike chain or sprockets. Belt drive reduces that concern somewhat, but then you're putting all that mid drive torque into an internally geared hub. A hub motor, that is driving the rear wheel directly. I've had good after-sale support from Lectric for my XP Lite.

Priority Current seems like a more reasonably priced option along your original line of thought and still keeps the reputation for high quality. However, you can carry twice as much on the Xpedition, even to the point of bringing your girlfriend along! Scroll down and check out the accessories

I go carless whenever I can, (commuting, shopping) and I'm running an Aventon Level.2. It is a Class 3 with a 500 W hub motor and 27.5 x 2.5" tires; really easy-rolling. Includes rack, fenders and integrated lights. 8 speed Shimano derailleur drive has been reliable. The Continental tires are great; I added FlatOut and have never gotten a flat after over 900 miles. Overall, the hardware and build quality is a bit nicer than on my Lectric, but not any more reliable. On PAS1 going 15-20 mph, I get 50 miles on a charge, no problem. I like the extra lights integrated into the seatstays; (in addition to the one integrated into the rear fender) it's quite visible from behind. Here's my review thread on the Level.2 in another forum, including a couple short videos. I have a Topeak MTX trunk bag on a Topeak rear rack. It has a pair of small fold-out panniers, each one big enough for a 5 qt. oil jug.

veganbikes

Don't buy your bike on eBay you are out of warranty and you are screwed if you do have an issue. We had a customer who came to us did all the research with us and then bought from a duvet seller on eBay who also happened to not be a dealer and he initially spent $500 less but he had a warranty issue with a battery and of course both the OEM and Bosch said yeah no not an authorized dealer not a new bike no warranty so he ended up having to spend 1k on a new battery.

The Vaast is neat though I am confused because looking at the picture it is a performance line motor which is the top of the range for Bosch, CX refers to their 20mph motor and the Speed motor which this one has is the 28mph motor but both have the same torque so you are not downgrading but upgrading to a speed motor which is nice. The bike is self though is not my style. Looks a bit more complex than needed and lots bad proprietary bits. Also not my style but I remember before my last shop closed after our owner passed we were considering Vaast and were going to have meetings with them that summer.

Don't buy the cheap bike, stay on the path. Yes you save some money initially but the support from a lot of these companies is not Scottish and if it's not Scottish it's... I have dealt with Aventontonton a few times and once was for a fork they sold on a bike and I was on the phone for 45 minutes and got the same information from them that I already had and they even talked to their engineers and a bunch of staff and still couldn't figure it out and it wasn't complex they used a silly bit in their fork to secure a thru-axle because a normal threading on the fork is $5 too expensive for them.

Nothing really complex about Bosch, yes it has wiring like any e-bike or e-moped in the case of the two bikes listed above but they have really easy and excellent support worldwide and I can plug it into the computer and the diagnostic software can tell me quite a lot and allow me to update it and change things easily should I want or need to do it. Plus it can also store a key number so when the bike is plugged in but I have lost my keys and my number I can order new ones. Plus I can run regular wheels and don't have to worry about specialized spokes and a heavier more poorly spoked wheel (because of the flange size in a lot of cases you have to run 2 cross instead of 3 cross leading to a less durable and strong wheel). It is also Bosch so it is well sealed from the elements and from a known and trusted company that has been around since the late 1800s and has their hand in a lot of motors and electric assisted items like tools as well as automotive and stuff for the home. Plus they have been doing their e-bike systems since 2009 so they have quite a lot of time having done it and been quite successful.

Dockhead

Vaast is a cheap bike? Hmm. The E-Bay seller is a legitimate German dealer, and Germany is as close as it gets for me. I'm not in Scotland; I'm in the other direction, in Estonia, and there are no dealers for most of these brands -- too small.

BTW it turns out that the motor in the Vaast is indeed a CX, just a non-Smart System one. I guess pre-Smart System.

There is a different problem with the Vaast, however, and that's weight. As it turns out it weighs a massive 37kg, and that I really don't like. I guess the extra weight comes from the rear suspension setup. The R&M Multicharger is a hardtail which I think is OK for this application (though I do love my full suspension Jetstream). The R&M Multicharger with Rohloff is the best thing I've seen, but it's hard to justify the cost. I can buy a new radar set for my yacht with the difference in cost to the Vaast.

Also I've been looking at used R&M's on EBay and it looks like they lose half their value in the first year or two, which makes a new one seem to me like a poor investment. So maybe I should buy a used one. Hmm.

Dockhead

Thanks, I like it! There's a good argument for having one of these for hauling stuff. Cheap enough you can leave it outdoors and not worry about it. Then something better for non-hauling trips.

cyclezen

I just came into the realm of e-bikes (from road & MTB), mainly for transport locally, other errands not requiring a car.
Given where you are, a certain versatility is probably a key consideration..
The VAAST looks really interesting, versatile, and covers a lot of bases and techy at the latest, highest level.
I'm just at the point of learning and using e-bikes, so not a lot to offer - not knowing how you like to make decisions on use and useful things - I have found, for myself, that I learn the most by actually 'using/doing' with whatever the activity might be, and also relate to the equipment needed that way.
You say the VAAST can be had for 5300 -ish Euro, that's still a quite sizeable cost/outlay... One I wouldn't want to find needs 'changing', after making/spending' for it.
I find, for me is buying something at a much lower cost, which covers much of what my first impressions/considerations might be. Then I USE it for some extensive period which provides me the education of 'actual use'. Which always seems to have me change and readjust my priorities for the equipment; which then makes me more satisfied in the long run. Then I can really understand and buy a longer term suitable 'thing', to fill my needs/desires. And re-sell the 'learning thing...
... seems to work well for me...
I bought a good quality Chinese e-bike, which seemed to cover most of the bases. Now, some months into the use of the e-bike, I have a much clearer understanding of the machines and clear understanding of what will work for me, in the long term. I'll sell the one I currently have, in good condition, and have a small 'tuition' cost based on what I get as a selling price.
Well worth the cost to get the Education I derived from the 1st e-bike's use...
might this work for you ? just a thought....
Ride On
Yuri
The VAAST seems very nice in many ways - but now having to lug around a 28 Kg (62 lb) bike - a 36 Kg (80 lb) bike would be a very undesirable daily annoyance.... for me...

Dockhead

Privet, Yuri.

Yeah, the weight of the Vaast plus the step-through frame has kind of scratched it off the list for me. The rear suspension is not worth 9kg of weight to me. My Jetstream is 12kg even with full suspension. 27kg is going to be plenty heavy enough.

I find the more I read the more I like the R&M Multicharger, and there are used and NOS ones available at acceptable prices. I might have to do without the Rohloff but that's an extreme luxury.

As an alternative, I think I might do ok with the Cube Kathmandu Hybrid, which in SLT trim is very good spec with very good components. Again without the Rohloff, but new it costs about what I can get a lightly used Multicharger for. The Cube isn't as good for carrying stuff but I think I can add a front rack and use a trailer for really heavy stuff. The other bike I'm still looking at is the KTM Macina Multi Urban.

I hear you about paying tuition with a cheaper bike, but I've been riding long enough to think I have a decent chance at getting it right on the first try, failing which I just sell the bike and try again, taking some loss if necessary (less on a used bike). I will most likely not by a new R&M because of the high cost and low resale value -- for just such a case as this. I know I don't want a cheap hub drive cargo bike.

Smaug1

Yeah, something with a completely different talent set. Maybe a road bike or a full suspension eMoped...

Dockhead

Looks intriguing but not sold in Europe, so not a choice for me.

veganbikes

No no no Vaast is not a cheap bike I was more responding to a different comment about someone suggesting you buy an e-moped instead. The Scottish comment was from an SNL sketch where Mike Myers said "if it's not Scottish, it's Craaaaap"

I doubt you will get warranty from an eBay sale. I would check with Vaast first and make sure they are an authorized dealer and confirm things so you don't get screwed.

In terms of weight 37kgs is quite heavy for any bike my bike is probably about 73lbs but has two 625wh batteries, I don't think even the SuperDelite which is full suspension and otherwise the same as my bike isn't that heavy.

However again buying used is a risk unless the bike is long out of warranty and you can get it inspected. A new bike my lose investment or something I really didn't care and still don't care I love the bike and will be riding it for a long long time. I don't buy bikes to invest in them. You own a yacht, a yacht is never a good investment you do it because you love it. I generally don't buy stuff like a bicycle for the resale value and don't really recommend doing it either. Get the bike you want and enjoy it and if you can't sell it for a ton of money many years down the line not a problem. Bikes are for enjoying.

Dockhead

Yes, the yacht is a great folly from a financial point of view -- a hole in the water you throw money into. Why I try to be ultra-sensible with all other things in my life, no car, etc.etc.

I don't fancy paying the depreciation on something like a R&M bike. A bike is not a car with hundreds of systems which you can't fix yourself and costing thousands or tens of thousands each to replace. I don't care that much about the warranty. I'm leaning towards a used Multicharger.

veganbikes

A bike is not a car that is correct. But I think that is already long established.

I would care about warranty but then again I was a warranty manager for many years and have known a lot of bikes that have needed warranty and could have gotten quite expensive if someone had to fix them on their own for a manufacturer defect but you do you. A used Mulitcharger is still a good bike but having no support would kind of suck but if you get it at the right price and but more importantly get it to a shop first and see if they can run a diagnostic test (at your expense unless the seller is really nice) and see how things are looking before you buy (or see if the seller can do it beforehand) then you could be in better shape.

You are paying depreciation on anything you buy pretty much so that Vaast is another one. Most things don't hold value when you purchase them and use them. I buy bikes to own the bikes and love the bikes I don't buy them for what value they have after purchase. I want to ride it not necessarily collect it and not use it. The only bike I really bought more to collect was my Phil Wood bike but I still ride that just not super often and don't care what it will be worth down the line regardless.

Dockhead

So update on this (in case anyone is interested!): I've kind of fallen out of love with the Tern HSD. Great hauling bike but second rate for other purposes with the 20" wheels, bottom-shelf suspension fork, 3rd generation Bosch motor and not even the CX.

I realize that as much as I would love a belt drive and internal hub (Rohloff -- drool), for this use case a derailleur is completely acceptable. The R&M Multicharger with derailleur is very reasonably priced; similar to the Tern HSD. And it has much better components. The Multicharger is a much better compromise between hauling and normal commuting/trekking use. And has really good suspension forks, top shelf brakes, and the top shelf Bosch Perf CX gen4 with Smart System. And 750w/h vs 400w/h battery. And is gorgeous to look at. The 26" wheels give lower CG compared to normal wheels, but still big enough for a normal bike ride.

I will give up the ability to take it up to my apartment and stand it on its tail, and I won't be able to throw it into a car trunk, but that's about the only drawback -- the hauling capacity is the same.

I found a NOS one in Germany for €3500 -- a completely reasonable price for such a nice bike. And with a year of warranty. Now I'm looking for a way to ship it to me.

Smaug1

Only problem with NOS is that you can't really know the health of the battery pack. If it has been sitting more than 6 months, the battery life will have degraded by now, even if it was stored at the recommended 30-50% state of charge. What does the warranty say about the battery? Is it completely excluded?

If you can't bring it into your apartment, do you feel like it will be safe left outside locked up, or do you have a secure storage location planned?

Dockhead

I've had good luck with NOS batteries. I have never seen a battery deteriorated after only 6 months. I'll check the warranty.

I have secure storage in both of my homes, but a bit of a faff to get such a heavy bike into them. I'm in Northern Europe with vanishingly little crime, so I won't be all that worried to leave outside locked up securely.

I think this solution will be good if I can only find shipping.

Dockhead

So, in case anyone is interested -- I've pulled the trigger on a display model R&M Multicharger GT 750, a 2022 model already with the Smart System, offered through the R&M online store. Saving nearly €2k on the regular price. I ordered it through the official dealer in Helsinki and so I get 2 years warranty. I came very close to buying a Rohloff but in the end this one won out. It has the normal derailleur gears which I think will be OK for this application. I'm psyched! I'm off on a business trip for a couple of weeks and it should be here when I get back.

Meanwhile my GF's Zundapp Z802 arrived in a crate, and I assembled it. A really nice looking bike for the money! We'll see what it rides like; we've got a foot of snow on the ground now so it won't be until later.

Dockhead

Follow up: I've taken delivery and ridden the R&M Multicharger for a couple of weeks.
I love it!! It's actually even much better than I had hoped.
Downsides are weight and bulk. It seems closer in weight to a Honda 50 than to a light road bike, and you can't just sling it over your shoulder to lug it up a flight of stairs. And it's too bulky to go in most elevators.
But other than that, it's all good. I was initially leery of ebikes because I didn't want to lose the workout from my normal bikes. I needn't have worried -- you regulate the assist level and get just as much workout as you want. I'm getting just as much exercise as I used to, maybe more, because I am much happier to go further and don't fear hills, even with a heavy load. I roam much further than I did before just because it's so pleasurable.
Range from the 750wh battery is excellent -- about 100km the way I ride (which is mostly with low level of assist). This is more range in terms of hours of riding than a full tank of gas in a car.
Carrying loads is a sheer pleasure because the electric assist basically cancels the effect of them. The racks are spacious, and I have the cargo bags and the larger front rack. A very large load of groceries -- like what I would do as a "big shopping" in a car -- doesn't fill the cargo bags.
The geometry is very good and the bike is extremely stable at speed. The hydraulic disk brakes are superb.
I ended up with the conventional derailleur gears, 11 speed cassette with no front derailleur. It's a better Shimano groupset, and shifts fine, but as it turns out fast shifting and good gear steps is at least as important for an ebike as for a normal one (I didn't expect this), so perhaps it was a mistake not to invest in the Rohloff version. Belt drive would certainly be nice. I have heard somewhere, however, that Rohloff shifting is slow, so maybe it wouldn't be that much better.
FWIW, that's my first impressions of ebike ownership.