Abe_Froman

IGH have been starting to be specced on some high end commuter bikes here in recent years. So there is a bit of a resurgence currently, but still bery much a niche item here.

ItsJustMe

I think derailleur systems are pushed by manufacturers because they're cheap to make and they can get a higher margin. You can almost stamp out chainrings, and derailleurs are far from precision machines, but IGHs need to be machined to close tolerances.
Similarly, given that in the US almost everyone considers bicycles to be disposable toys that receive zero maintenance, derailleurs are probably the best choice for those mindsets.

acidfast7

The insularness of America has been frustrating lately, on a global scale.

This is just another example of localised thinking that seems to be increasingly permeated throughout American society.

Also, just correcting a factually erroneous statement.

acidfast7

Much better with use of "here."

Abe_Froman

Not much to disagree with in the first bit. Regarding the second bit...you’re on an american website largely populated by americans. Yoi might do well to consider US locality implied in most conversations, rather than jumping straight to getting your knickers in a bunch.

I aim to please

acidfast7

Again, that's very insular thinking.

Bikeforums is owned by InternetBrands (IB), which is an American company that is owned by KKR & Co. LP which is a global investment firm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg_Kravis_Roberts

Again, it's not really American and you'll be doing well to realise that.

I'd also like to see a breakdown of IP hits to the forum, perhaps the mods could provide that.

Abe_Froman

I already looked it up. A shade over 50% is US. So a majority US, but much less than I anticipated.

Regardless - decaff time

acidfast7

Why would one anticipate more? That alone is strange and not risk-averse.

At some point, you guys will catch up to IGHs

acidfast7

Also, I can appreciate that you employed the correct word regardless as irregardless is not a really a proper word.

However, you might want to apply only a single eff in decaff, which is an abomination that I would never touch.

Abe_Froman

Perhaps. But there are real impediments to it here, even ignoring the cultural differences.

I’m sure this has been discussed ad nauseum already...but US cities are newer and generally less suited to cycling and more designed with autos in mind. I think there will always be a gap in the usage of cycles as transportation between the US and Europe, which is a point against the IGH.

A second is practical. Due to the design of cities to utilize the auto, commute distances tend to be longer. This would skew the choice of bike towards a derailleur bike which will tend to be designed to cover longer distances more effociently.

acidfast7

I agree with 1.

I don't agree with an "efficiency" difference that would be above negligible.

acidfast7

Evidence packing up my no difference in efficiency claim (sorry only in German but I'll provide a quick translation):

Initial setup:















https://fahrradzukunft.de/16/wirkung...enschaltungen/

IGHs:

https://fahrradzukunft.de/17/wirkung...schaltungen-2/

Pinion gearbox (which is quite cool):

https://fahrradzukunft.de/20/wirkung...schaltungen-3/

Summary figures for IGH:




for IGH/pinion



total loss for pinion in W

acidfast7

Top chart:

pink straight line is singlepseed
y-axis is efficiency
x-axis is gear

thick line is 200W test
thin line is 50W test

top chart:

rear mech has an efficiency of 95.5% and 92% at 200W and 50W respectively

rohloff is around the same across the board (maybe minus 1-2% on average)
alfine11 is 5-7% loss
inter8 is a little worse
nuvici is around 10% worse
the pinion system hovers around 5% loss under both conditions

the W loss calcs have been done for the Pinion gearbox based on rpms/cadence and most are under 6W loss.

i guess that we can argue whether a Rohloff is worth the cash or whether would feel 3-5% loss in watts.

Abe_Froman

No need for the translation. I got the necessary info from the first picture...no tyre.

I know there is a relatively small loss in efficiency going from a derailleur to an IGH. Measurable...maybe not negligible, but certainly not significant and probably not even noticeable on its own.

But I was not referring to the IGH itself, but rather IGH BIKES. And, unless one were to build it up on their own, they are almost universally much less efficient (speed/energy wise...) than derailleur bikes. Sloooowwwww tires meant for running over crushed chandeliers are going to be the biggest factor by far, but the weight of the frame/fenders/chainguard/etc that typically come with IGH bikes do make a difference as well (albeit probably of the measurable but not significant sort, unless you're in a hilly area).

Now....of course you can just switch tyres...but then you're back to the main reason I don't use an IGH, being the pain in the butt of the back wheel removal.

acidfast7

Again you need to look around the planet.

https://www.ghost-bikes.com/bikes/la...e-urban-58-al/

is an example of an efficient cost-effective commuting bike.

Abe_Froman

Well again, let's look at the bike vs a fast derailleur bike.

The tires on your linked bike are about 15 watts slower than good road bike tires. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...t-contact-2016

Another 5 watts or so for the efficiency loss of an IGH. Plus I assume there is a cost for the belt drive, but I have no idea what it might be, so we'll ignore it for now.

Then, there is the more upright riding position of that commuter bike.

So, if you're comparing the bike you linked vs a normal drop bar road bike with decent tires while riding on the hoods...you're looking at roughly a 1.65 MPH difference for an equivalent power output. Not a staggering difference of course, but certainly significant - that's 10%.
Bike Calculator

Personally...I'll take the 10% free speed over whatever meager benefits you do get from an IGH. They certainly have their place, and it makes increasing levels of sense the shorter the trips are...but lets not pretend the benefits are 'free' from a performance standpoint.

acidfast7

This is a COMMUTING and not a PERFORMANCE forum. More than 50% of the planet lives in an urbanised area where a long-distance commute would not be necessary.

Even the US population is 82% urban.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS

The raw data can be seen here:

World Development Indicators | DataBank

acidfast7

Also, there is nothing normal about a drop-barred race/sport bike (which is what it is referred to in most languages.)

Abe_Froman

You need to get out more; your view is soooo insular

My commute is 7.5 miles each way. Many people, on this forum, in this very subforum, have much, much longer commutes. A couple miles an hour makes a difference. If my commute were half that, and my bike were a dedicated commuter, I might think pretty seriously about a hard-core IGH commuter specific model like the one you linked. But neither of those conditions is true, and for a variety of reason, many in the US have similar circumstances.

So as I said....IGH have their place, but their appeal is reduced here. I don't feel like we're actually even arguing about anything anymore lol

acidfast7

7.5 each way. That's FGSS territory. Not even worth any extra gears nor special clothing.

Anyone requiring dropbars for that is a little

noglider 

@acidfast7, people's surroundings and exposure influence their points of view. You, of all people, should know this. Looking down at people serves no one and annoys people. Having a US-centric point of view is no more sinful than having an Asia-centric or Africa-centric point of view.

General Geoff

IGHs advantages are lower maintenance, that is their strong suit. People who want a lower maintenance commuter bike also want to deal with fewer flats, ergo heavier, puncture-resistant commuter/touring style tires. This is convenient because as you said, removing the rear wheel on an IGH bike is a little bit more time consuming in the event you do get a flat.

The bottom line is that ultra low rolling resistance racing tires will inevitably get more punctures than a heavier commuter tire. That is a problem endemic to the nature of racing bicycle tires, not a flaw in the appeal of an IGH to most commuters, who will glady trade an extra minute of riding in exchange for not having to deal with punctures nearly as often.

By all means, commute on a racing bike if it makes you happy! Some people commute to work in track-prepped race cars with roll cages and five point harnesses. Does it make sense? Not really, but if it makes them happy, who cares?

acidfast7

I agree 100%. I was simply pointing out that that user's POV is US-centric. At the beginning of the exchange, the user did NOT realise this limitation, now hopefully they do.

Also, it allowed me to deliver actual content/data to a thread that was sorely lacking it.

Nothing beats empirical analysis.

noglider 

The bigger picture is not very relevant. Being right is not always helpful.

Abe_Froman

Don't get me started on single-speed/fixed gears

And I have one. But they don't really have a practical selling point other than novelty.