MikeyBoyAz

my limitation is the gapping in the chain stays... running 23c and the r440s is pretty tight.

canam73

I's just funning with you. What frame is that on?

MikeyBoyAz

felt f5

jcoogs

the 585's are 19.5MM. so if i were to run 23MM or even 25MM tire, wouldn't I get a little wider tire for handling? I ride a Cervelo R3. so I think I'm preety good with room in the rear. I've narrowed the Hub down the Ultegra 6800, from the research and posts on this thread, but in between now with the 585 or 440's.

canam73

An exterior rim width of 19-20mm along with 23mm tires is the common oem set up on road bikes and it works well enough for most people. Some like running at lower psi for a smoother ride though, and for a heavier rider that will require a larger tire to avoid pinch flats. Another option is to use a wider rim which will give a larger overall air volume with the same size tire. Wider rims can also build into laterally stiffer wheels although that is also dependent on other aspects of the build. And contrary to conventional wisdom from a few years ago, the slightly wider rim actually improves aerodynamics by providing a smoother transition from the the tire to rim profile and improves rolling resistance as the tire is able to absorb road irregularities without bouncing. Some people also feel an improvement in handling and braking due to a larger and wider tire contact patch and possibly due to a straighter sidewall on the tire (as opposed to the 'lightbulb' profile you would get from tucking a wide tire into a narrower rim).

But as some have noted, plenty of miles have been logged by heavier rider on 23mm tires with 19mm rims. Most of the improvements I noted will be marginal. But then again, if you are specing your own wheels why not? And the heavier you are the more you stand to benefit.

brawlo

They run tight don't they.... I put my A23 rimmed wheels running Conti GP4000 25s into my F4 when I bought it. After a few weeks I had the rear wheel off for something and noticed the tyre was rubbing into the chainstays. Took the 25s off and straight back to 23s! No probs since.

Back before I got my Felt I was looking at the R3. It ended up being too small for me, but the point is I put my A23 wheels running the Conti GP4000 25s into an R3 sitting at the LBS and the front wouldn't go (too tall) and the rear was running really close to the seat tube

MikeyBoyAz

yeah the cervelos were bad in the front and the Felts are back in the back. sad. I have an easton EC90SL fork which has tons of room in the front, so I can get away with running 25c no problem.

bigfred 

As long as that 25 isn't a "Michelin 25". I couldn't fit Michelin 25s nor 28mm Contis in my EC90SL. Both rubbed. I had to down size to the 25mm Conti GP4Season. Which fits, Just. I would be very careful about declaring "no problem".

MikeyBoyAz

I only ride GP4Ks tyres... no idea what the rest of the tyre world is like...

bigfred 

With that in mind and the fact that most people seem to report GP4000s running true to slightly smaller than indicated, you should probalby be careful about throwing around statements like,
The EC90SL I have is anything but roomy. My previous Time fork had considerably more clearance both laterally and radially. In fact, it was radial clearance issues that prohibited the use of the 28mm GP4Season on the Easton, even after I carefully removed any mold flashing.

If, in the future, you qualify your statements and experience, they provide greater value to the other participants. There's a big difference between, 'I've run a 25mm GP4000s without any issues' and "an Easton EC90SL which has tons of room".

MikeyBoyAz

I get this is important to you, but I am likely not going to qualify my statements to that specificity... too much work, much like finishing this repl...

adrien

585 is a very burly rim. I rode a set for about 3000 miles before breaking apart the wheels to use the hubs with a lighter, prettier rim (Ambrosio FCS28. Very nice rim, very hard to get in the USA). I'm 210 or so, and I ran them 32, 3x, brass nipples. Zero issues, but they are not the most lively rim. They are very similar to a Velocity deep V, only much better build.

I've also got a set of deep-V winter wheels that run Ultegra hubs -- 28 front and 32 rear. 2x front and non-drive, and 3x drive. Again, brass nipples. ZERO issues, but they feel very "dead" to me compared to my main summer wheels (FCS28s, cx-rays and CK r45 hubs).

Honestly, for a burly wheel 32 is fine, especially Ultegra and 585. You don't need more, and you can go 28 in front. I'd recommend 32 just because you can a lot of interesting rims in 32s but not 36 (FCS28, certain archetypes, etc.)

Photos with the FCS 28s (silver) and the RR585s below…

qqy

It's an R3? Get the 440s in 32h. They will take your weight no problem if they're built right. 3x lacing, brass nipples, DT comp spokes - done. I've been using a set of 465s on 240s, 28h 2x lacing, and they've been very strong and never seen a truing stand.

3alarmer 

.
.
....at some risk of restating the obvious, a bicycle hub is simply a means to and end.

You need some way to hook the spokes (if that's what your wheel is using) to the
bearings and races, which are your connection to the axle and the bike.

So pretty much anything that does this reliably is a good hub. A lot of the $275 in this
case is for finish/style/branding. More spokes usually = more durable wheel, all other
things being equal .....which usually they are not. And radial spoking will void the
warranty on a lot of hubs, but I don't know about the new ones in this thread's OP.

hairnet

Maybe one that got through QC? The one I ride everyday on my commuter is fine and should remain fine with an annual overhaul. The seals do feel like they have more drag than the higher up hubs.

jcoogs

I can get into a set of dura ace 7900 for only $165 more than a set of ultegra 6800 for the wheel set I'm having built. The 7900 would hold me back from any future 11spd but for the $$ seems worth it.

bigfred 

The only reason to consider the DA hubs is weight. If you're going to start to weightweenie this build, start with shaving 100grams per rim for little to no additional cost. You'll feel a much bigger difference from that, than from weight savings at the freehub body. Of course, such rims might not have the durability that the 585s have.

What was the design brief for this wheel set again?

jcoogs

28f or 32f, radial or 3x depending on hub choice. 32r 3x with the 440 assymetric rear and 440 front. DT champion spokes. brass nipples.

canam73

Use Competition spokes. For an extra $10 you'll loose 60 grams with virtually no loss of strength. Much better deal than the DA hubs.

bigfred 

By asking about the design brief I was thinking more along the lines of defining what the use and expectations will be. Examples:

A set of durable, everyday training wheels for a 240lb clyde. Expected to last until the brake track wears out with minimal maintenance and with approx. xx,000 miles use per year. On mostly (pick one flat/rolling/hilly/mountainous) terrain and to be shod with XYZ tires. Budget of $xxx-xxx.

or

A set of event/race day and special group ride wheels for a 240lb cyde who is chasing PR's and the possibility of beating his mates. Don't expect that they'll get used more than X days XXXX miles per year. Willing to have them trued/tensioned X times per year and accept that one good blow may result in the need for rim replacement. To be shod with XYZ tires and with a budget of $XXX-XXXX.

Or

A set of Blinging wheels that will make a 240lb clyde want to get on his bike and ride. The sort of wheels that will result in my mates going "Ooooo" or "Ahhhhh" as if the Girl from Ipanema just walked by. Budget of XXX. Expect them to last XXX.

Another question: Are you plannning to build these yourself? If so, do you have previous wheelbuilding experience? Or, will they be built by a reputable wheelsmith?

jcoogs

Actually a little of all three mentioned above. Lol. However more for everyday training rides with a few races. Terrain is hilly rolling type. Minimal maintenance set of wheels. I'll have a professional build these. Less than 10,000 miles per year.

thehammerdog

nope....but f you have it why not but no benefit that you can tell....

bigfred 

That's what I sensed and was afraid of. A bit like the guy who walks into a job shop and needs a project done: NOW, TO AN EXCEPTIONAL STANDARD and CHEAPLY.

I read this as training and a few citizen's races, Gran Fondos or other organized events, rather than licensed racing. If that's the case and given your weight, I will suggest that ensuring your wheels are capable of maximizing your training mileage will be of greater benefit to your finish times than shaving weight from them. Also, the fewer the events one is enter into the greater the disappointment if a mechanical results in a DNF.

10,000miles/year equates to 12 hours/week on the bike to me. So, you need some wheels that are going to support all weather training of that magnitude. At 10,000 miles/year, all weather training at your weight, you'll be doing well to get more than 2 seasons, maybe 3, out of a set of rims before they wear through at the brake track or suffer sufficient tramatic events that they become hard to keep true. This is highly location dependent.

You warrant some training wheels, whether you also purchase event wheels or not.

Yep.

Good. We wouldn't have to keep them beginner friendly. However, my first recommendation would be beginner friendly anyhow.

You need two sets of wheels:

1. Training wheels. Durable, capable of maintaining true under a 240lb clyde and the variety of conditions that they are going to experience training for up to 12 hours per week with minimal maintenance or trips to the shop. And which are going to get chewed through in a few seasons.

The durability is going to be largely dependent on high uniform spoke tension and the rims ability to support that. Don't go weight weenie on training wheels. Some 500+ gram rims are going to do an excellent job in this regard. The DT Swiss 585s you were originally considering. Velocity Deep Vs, Mavic CXP33s, etc.

Laced with 14ga straight spokes on the drive side and double butted 14/15 everywhere else to brass nipples, 3X.

There's little reason to adorn these wheels with DA hubs. They're going to be getting used in some really poor conditions. Used, abused, ridden hard, put away wet, repeat. Tiagra, 105 or Ultegra hubs will all provide the same level of durability with minor improvements to finish and bearing races along the line. All of them have a steel freehub body. As a clyde who has locked up or stripped numerous freehubs over the years, that is the primary feature I look for in what I expect to be a durable rear hub.

They're going to weigh in the neighboorhood of 2,000 grams. But, you may be surprised how many comments they may garner.


2. Some Event Day or Special Use wheels. For the occassional century, Gran Fondo, fast paced group or club ride on a nice day, etc. They still need to respect your weight. But, they don't need to be as robustly durable. Now you can start to get into saving weight at the expense of that durability.

I'm going to approach the component spec in the opposite order as a consequence of that focus on weight and/or aero dynamics.

Hubs, those Dura Ace hubs you have your eyes on would work. Realize they have a titanium freehub body and will be subject to notching. But, the move from a steel freehub to alloy or ti is any easy way to save considerable weight, albeit near the center of rotation.

Spokes, As a 240lb clyde you really aren't going to be a candidate for traditional ultra-light spokes (Revo's, 15/17s, etc.). Interestingly, Sapim CX-rays are made from a parent Lazer (2.0-1.5-2.0mm) spoke but seem to benefit from the forming process and plenty of clydes seem to get satisfactory results from them with no weight penalty. But, at a reasonable cost premium. Radial front, but, still with at least 2X if not 3X rear(depends on spoke count, flange dia., etc.)

Nipples, I would recommend brass nipples if you were an inexperienced homebuilder. But, since you're having these built by a presumably respected wheelsmith and since they aren't intended to provide the utmost durability there is no reason not to go alloy. Saving additional weight furtherst from the center of rotation and at a very minimal cost premium.

Rims, You could go light alloy (sub 450 grams) if cost/value is a concern. Or, aero carbon at about the same weight. But, at a significant price premium. If going light'ish alloy I would still recommend a reasonably high spoke count (at least 28, probably 32, depending on exact rim choice). Choosing carbon would allow the consideration of lower spoke counts.


The cool thing with custom wheels is that you can start to mix and match components and considerations and get something that best meets your needs, expectations and desires.

But, I find that so often, if we start trying to make a "one design, does it all" solution, we get a swiss army knife that attempts to cover many functions, but, does none of them well.

Define the job that needs to be done. Build the tool for that job.

That's my .02c

qqy

Wow - information overload. At 240 you aren't really looking for racing wheels, you're looking wheels that will get you down to race weight if ANY hills are involved. Even for flat crits 240 is very heavy. And I say this as a 6'4" dude who races crits and track. You want solid, dependable wheels for all round usage. Worry about fancy carbon wheels when you're trying to upgrade to cat3. Honestly, at this point ANY wheels you get won't be holding you back.

6800s on 440s, 32h, 3x, brass nips will build fantastic wheels. Don't even think about any less spokes or radial lacing @ 240lbs unless you're gonna run a monster rim (like a 585). Even alloy nipples are a stretch. That will get you through all your training and races. By the time you wear the brake track out, you will then KNOW what wheels you need. I personally just built A23s on 105 hubs, 32h, 3x and they are fantastic. Feel amazing with 25s on. Rides even nicer than my 465s on 240s.

In the end of the day, you should be asking your builder's opinion on the details. Each builder has strongly different preferences, and the fundamental quality of the wheels depends on the quality of the build. At 200lbs+, many builders (Peter White) would go straight to 36h and brass nips and would refuse anything else. You have a good idea of what you want at this point.

jcoogs

I'm actually going with the 6800s 32h, brass nips with dt comp spokes at 3x on the 440's.