dpd3672

I had an older Hed Alps rim with a wired Powertap hub that I was looking to upgrade to a wireless (ANT+). I found a used G3 on Ebay, and dropped the whole thing off to be relaced.

Just got a call from the shop, they broke my rim in the process of relacing the wheel. Is this common? Should I be upset? What would be a reasonable expectation of the shop as far as making it right?

They told me that HED quoted them $600 to replace the rim and lace it all up. I'm not looking to spend that much. Should they be buying me a rim, splitting the cost, offering a replacement?

Any advice/ideas?

corrado33

What... exactly happened? Some of the nomenclature you're using isn't obvious to the majority of us. I'm assuming the G3 is a ANT+ hub, which you were trying to get laced into your rim?

What broke? Did a spoke pull through? What kind of shape was the rim in? Is it possible that it was damaged before?

PepeM

That is a tricky one. How exactly did it break?

JohnDThompson 

Was it a spoke hole failure? It might be hard to hold the shop responsible if this was a used rim that may have had occult cracks already.

hueyhoolihan

it's simple, unless they can show that the rim was defective before it broke, they are responsible for the cost of an equivalent replacement.

no different than if you hired a contractor to fix your window and they put a hole in the wall while doing it. they need to make it right.

OnyxTiger

The fact that they already had the replacement quote handy without - in the same conversation - discussing ways to settle the cost, tells me that they were simply assuming that you would pick up the whole tab. Sounds both unfair and inconsiderate to me, especially since (as far as we know) they didn't explain how and why it broke.

I would be going into this conversation with an aggressive stance, forcing them to right the mistake. They decided to take up the job, didn't address any possible malfunctions/defects prior to, and simply handed off the mistake to you. That's poor service.

Absolutely no way am I footing the whole cost for this. Even footing half would be giving away too much, imo.

calamarichris

Everyone's so sure the bike shop did something wrong, but this was described as an older Hed rim.
How many miles on it? What kind of riding? Are you even the original owner?

It's attitudes like above why real bike shops that have knowledgeable techs are bitter, angry bearded grouches. And it's also why modern carbon-boutiques wouldn't even touch a job like this in the first place.
So glad I'm not running a bike shop. People stink on ice.

CliffordK

I think we need a lot more details from the OP. I.E. What actually broke, before pointing any fingers.

Is the wheelset similar to this?

Hed Alps 700c Carbon Wheel Set | eBay

I'm now imagining all these plastic bikes, 20 years own the road may be nightmare of aged brittle plastic.

Anyway, is it an aluminum/carbon fiber composite rim? Where are the nipple seats?

OnyxTiger

Not that I'm mad. I'm really not. It's not my rim that broke.

My point is - the bike shop should've asked those kinds of questions that you just asked before taking on the job. Also, before taking on the job, they should've been clear about what routes they would take if the equipment was damaged in the first place. Because of not doing those things, the customer is now stuck asking the internet what should happen here.

Feel free to attack my attitude, not too sure what that accomplishes. Perhaps saying that people stink on ice doesn't, either.

dpd3672

The rim is older, a carbon fairing bonded to an aluminum rim. I was told that the rim had to be drilled differently for the spokes to use a POWERTAP hub (by the mechanic, when I was told it had broke), and that's why it broke.

I assumed going from a wired to a wireless POWERTAP hub would be a simple swap, now they tell me that's not the case.

I'm not looking to demand a new set of wheels, just trying to get an opinion on what I should reasonably expect them to do to make it right. I dropped off an older, but working, wheel with a POWERTAP, expecting to have it back with the upgraded part installed. What I have now is a broken rim and an orphaned hub.

And my phone is capitalizing POWERTAP, don't know why, sorry.

TenSpeedV2

What shop is this in Detroit?

trailangel

Huh?

CliffordK

I assume you have the same number of spokes on both hubs. Did you discuss what would be required for the changeover before dropping off the rims? Before modifications were attempted? Did the wheel builder discover problems during the build, then inform you before destroying your rim? And, have you seen it?

Are the hub flanges for the two powertap hubs different diameters? Different spacing? 10s vs 11s? If the nipples are at the aluminium outer rim, then go through a deep covering, then out a second small hole, then the configuration would be very sensitive to flange diameter, and maybe even flange spacing.

I am surprised that a regular bike shop would have professional equipment and expertise to attempt modification of deep wall CF rims.

I am just a little surprised they would even attempt the job.

If it is non structural CF fairing that has broken, can it be repaired? Maybe someone local has some CF repair experience. You could contact Calfee. It says they frequently reject rims and carbon/aluminum bonded joints, but it doesn't say they always reject them.

Anyway, if the shop communicated the difficulties before and/or during the process, and you authorized them to go ahead, then I would expect you to take full liability.

On the other hand, if you dropped off the wheels without a hint of potential issues, and the first you heard from them was after the rim was damaged, then I would expect them to take at least partial liability. But, that would still depend on whether it was something the wheel builder did, or a previously undiscovered flaw in the rim.

Rowan

The best you could expect, in my estimation, is a replacement rim of the same value and configuration as the original HED. And because it is an older rim, that might be difficult to source.

I also am a bit surprised that the shop took on the job in the first place if there are in fact complexities with the holes, flange widths and drillings.

Did the shop give you a docket and if so have you had a look at the fine print? Or is there is any signage in the shop that liability is limited or not accepted when servicing bikes?

dpd3672

Fraser Bike. They're pretty big on the Eastside in triathlon and running events, and were recommended by more than one friend as a shop that was experienced in handling the more "exotic" stuff. They stock mostly higher end products (Cervelo, Quintana Roo, Specialized, etc). I was planning on using them for a tri fitting this winter. Their prices seemed maybe a little higher than a "mom and pop" lbs, but I figured it was worth it if they were the best.

There was no contract or service agreement, and nothing out of the ordinary was discussed when I dropped the rims off, they just mentioned that there would be a delay for them to order spokes, if they didn't have them in stock. First I heard from them about the rim was after it was damaged. The phone conversation I had with the mechanic led me to believe that there was some "caveats" to lacing up the powertap hub to a hed wheel, that the mechanic didn't realize until after the rim broke and he talked to Hed on the phone.

Going after work to the shop, just wanted some opinions on what I should expect as a reasonable resolution to the situation. I don't expect them to give me a new set of $1000+ wheels, but don't think I should go home "less whole" than I started.

spdracr39

Sounds like a discussion with the shop manager/owner is in order. Whether they were at fault or not your displeasure should be made known and the opportunity for them to make you happy given. No one here can know the actual circumstances only here say and thus judgement by us is irrelevant. I can tell you for sure that going in with a poor attitude created from negative feedback on a forum page will not net you the same gain as a good attitude asking for consideration. Having said that if it was mine I would be pissed and make it known that I felt like I was being treated unfairly and if they didn't cover their mistake I wouldn't be back and wouldn't recommend them to anyone in the future.

Juan Foote

Did you know upon taking the new hub in that the spoke hole count wasn't the same, and also knew (before the work was started) that they were going to have to try and modify your old rim to make it fit?

Answer yes- buy yourself a new wheel

Answer no- shop owes you a comparable (be it used) value wheel.

I don't know whom you dropped the wheel off to. If it was the mechanic then these issues should have been discussed straight away. If you dropped it off to the phone jockey then they would not have known to ask, and it sounds like you didn't either.

In resolution (assuming no above) I think I would look at it as a learning experience and see if the shop will comp you in "non cost" service like a fitting, or bike service or something, and perhaps a "deal" on a replacement rim at your cost that WILL be compatible with the hub.

StanSeven

Excellent advice! What the OP needs to do is calmly express his disappointment and frustration to the owner/shop manager. The owner needs to see how they would feel if the situation was reversed. There's probably lots of other information the OP isn't aware of either. That kind of conversation usually leads to the best settlements. It's also much better than getting worked up from responses from others here who don't know the entire story, are distrustful of others, want to be Internet tough guys, etc.

spdntrxi

This completely...

Nachoman

One other question to ask yourself is what you would have done with the information (beforehand) if the mechanic had warned you about the risk involved in the work you requested.
If the answer is that you would have left the wheel there anyway, I would probably just limit my complaint to the mechanic's lack of communication.
If the answer is that you would NOT have taken the risk and have them attempt to work on the wheel, then I would probably make a bigger deal about it.

mconlonx

+1

I'm having a hard time visualizing why a rim would need to be drilled differently to install a new hub... and why a shop would even agree to do such a thing.

Depending on what was involved, this could very well be a job I would have turned down at our shop. When people insist we use used parts for a repair or build, we give a standard disclaimer -- won't/can't guarantee quality of operation; not responsible for broken parts; customer assumes any extra labor fee involved and responsibility for incompatible parts issues. Policy based on experience...

A decent resolution in this particular case might be a comparable replacement rim at or near dealer cost with customer paying original, agreed labor fee.

dpd3672

I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly, but I believe they're referring to how the holes in the carbon fairing are drilled, offset from the holes in the aluminum rim to accommodate the wider diameter of the Powertap hub. The mechanic told me the crack didn't start until he began to tighten the spokes, so I'm assuming he meant the holes needed a different "offset" if the hub diameter was different, and when he started to tension them, it cracked.

I'm not sure how much of the blame the shop has for not knowing better, but since they deal heavily in racing/triathlon bikes, I would think they've done this type of work before.

And I think your resolution seems reasonable...I'd be happy with a heavily discounted, comparable replacement. I'm not trying to put the shop on the hook for setting me up with new gear, just want to be around where I started, without going out of pocket for a $600 rim (which is the price they quoted me if they got a replacement rim from Hed).

And again, I didn't start this thread to trash the shop, or to get anyone up in arms taking sides with me or the shop, just to get a general idea what would be a reasonable expectation of them (and me) to "fix" the problem without anyone getting ripped off.

CliffordK

Here is my interpretation. Obviously condensed. Less of an issue with a full sized rim and a couple mm worth of changes. But, the shop should have been able to predict problems when ordering new spokes and lacing up the wheel. Re-drilling?



On the left, one has a non-structural fairing, which I think the HED rim has. Spokes originate at the aluminum rim.
Moving, say from the green flange to the red flange would change where the spoke exits out of the fairing (green line).

If one keeps the spoke exiting out the original green hole, then one gets a bend in the middle of the spoke, red spoke. Tighten that spoke down and it spells TROUBLE.

Pretty much any change would create this problem, different flange spacing, or a different flange diameter for crossed spokes (radial spokes would be less sensitive to flange diameter, but still sensitive to flange spacing, and the ultimate angle).

On the right, one has a structural fairing. The spokes and nipples originate at the bottom of the rim. Angles of the holes would be somewhat affected, but the rim is far less sensitive to flange changes.

Assuming the non-structural fairing on the left side of the diagram, I have to wonder why any shop would take on this job, unless it is something they are really setup to do, an do a dozen a day. Even so, you'll get multiple spoke holes, or enlarged spoke holes, maybe some filler, and the end result won't look pretty.

I can see why even simply re-dishing a wheel could be a problem.

It is not that you need a shop that deals with some nice bikes. You need a wheel builder that isn't in the top 10%, but rather that wheel builder that is in the top 0.1%. Maybe a job to send it back to the factory.

Rowan

I understand what you say, but wouldn't it be obvious that the spoke wasn't going to line up with the original hole in the fairing... that there would be a significant bend in it which would then put undue force on the fairing? Or that the spoke wouldn't protrude in the right place to actually thread into the hole on the rim itself?

CliffordK

We still don't have a good description of the actual config and damage.

I haven't seen those wheels in person, but if the fairing is non-structural, then it would likely be designed to be as light as possible. And, a decade old, it probably wouldn't take much to do some damage.

It is quite likely the holes are only off by 1mm or so. Lacing the wheel, everything is loose, and you couldn't tell a thing. Only as the spokes are brought up to tension would it become clear that something was seriously wrong.

Still, the rim isn't transparent. So, one would only see the spokes resting on the side of the spoke holes, and might not realize how serious of a problem was occurring.

Hopefully the OP has had a chance to inspect his wheel.

PICTURES?