Fell into a frame
#1
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
Fell into a frame
Sometimes you just fall into things. I was offered this Claud Butler frameset yesterday. Of course I said yes.
It's a repaint obviously, and was never assembled after it was painted. Decals are under clear, and it appears to be correct, but I am no Claud Butler expert.
As far as I can tell, it was made in January of 1950, but I might be mistaken. It's very interesting as a frameset. It is 56X55, so it's perfectly my size. I took some quick pictures last night after I excitedly drove it home.
I will get some good daylight pics tomorrow. Paint job isn't bad, and the lug lining looks really good at any normal viewing distance.
It's a repaint obviously, and was never assembled after it was painted. Decals are under clear, and it appears to be correct, but I am no Claud Butler expert.
As far as I can tell, it was made in January of 1950, but I might be mistaken. It's very interesting as a frameset. It is 56X55, so it's perfectly my size. I took some quick pictures last night after I excitedly drove it home.
I will get some good daylight pics tomorrow. Paint job isn't bad, and the lug lining looks really good at any normal viewing distance.
__________________
Likes For Erzulis Boat:
Likes For Erzulis Boat:
#3
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
Very fun to just hold and look at the little details. It's fillet brazed, and the "lugs" are hand sculpted obviously.
__________________
Likes For Erzulis Boat:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,963
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4852 Post(s)
Liked 3,990 Times
in
2,589 Posts
Fell into a frame - but fortunately it was steel. I was able to get out through the limber holes. It was tough!
That said - nice! I like those lugs!
That said - nice! I like those lugs!
Likes For 79pmooney:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,345
Mentioned: 417 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3842 Post(s)
Liked 3,398 Times
in
2,216 Posts
-----
WOW!
so rare that when something "falls into one's lap" it be:
a) quality &
b) exactly the right size
hast thee as yet forumulated any build plans?
period?
other?
headset appears to be Alatet, both Brampton and Thomas D. Cross & Sons Ltd did their own editions
-----
WOW!
so rare that when something "falls into one's lap" it be:
a) quality &
b) exactly the right size
hast thee as yet forumulated any build plans?
period?
other?
headset appears to be Alatet, both Brampton and Thomas D. Cross & Sons Ltd did their own editions
-----
Likes For juvela:
#6
aged to perfection
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: PacNW
Posts: 1,857
Bikes: Dinucci Allez 2.0, Richard Sachs, Alex Singer, Serotta, Masi GC, Raleigh Pro Mk.1, Hetchins, etc
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 852 Post(s)
Liked 1,281 Times
in
676 Posts
very nice looking ride. Unusual and very flashy color. Colour
would make a nice display or wal hanger
/markp
would make a nice display or wal hanger
/markp
Likes For mpetry912:
#7
Señor Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,955
Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1500 Post(s)
Liked 1,103 Times
in
646 Posts
That's quite a landing. I hope that you have a great time getting it operational, and then riding it.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
In search of what to search for.
Likes For USAZorro:
#8
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
-----
WOW!
so rare that when something "falls into one's lap" it be:
a) quality &
b) exactly the right size
hast thee as yet forumulated any build plans?
period?
other?
headset appears to be Alatet, both Brampton and Thomas D. Cross & Sons Ltd did their own editions
-----
WOW!
so rare that when something "falls into one's lap" it be:
a) quality &
b) exactly the right size
hast thee as yet forumulated any build plans?
period?
other?
headset appears to be Alatet, both Brampton and Thomas D. Cross & Sons Ltd did their own editions
-----
That's the issue. If I go period, in all honesty, I wouldn't ride it that much, as it is just not practical. It would become one of my "5AM" bikes (I ride around the neighborhood at 5AM on a Sunday morning as to avoid cars etc.)
That being said, I believe in complete bikes, but I have not decided yet.
The reason the guy sold it was that he wanted to make it practical and was contemplating a coaster brake, but just never got around to it. Sinking the money into a period build did not have any appeal to him, as after the expense it was going to be a wall hanger anyway. He put the money that changed hands into his Bob Jackson touring bike that he was really going to put some miles on.
__________________
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 939
Bikes: 1968 Raleigh Super Course, 1972 Raleigh Professional, 1975 Raleigh International, 1978 Raleigh Professional, 1985 Raleigh Prestige, 1972 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, 1960 Carlton Franco Suisse Peugeot PX10, 1972 Motobecane Le Champ
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 324 Post(s)
Liked 690 Times
in
351 Posts
Beautiful! The details are outstanding but I’d really love to see a photo of the complete frame and fork.
#10
Stop reading my posts!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,612
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1453 Post(s)
Liked 1,078 Times
in
799 Posts
nice vintage 'iron", appears to have the CB bi-laminate lugs that are named "All-rounder" in some catalogs (catalogues) such as this from '53, and the model might be an Olympic Sprint since fork was not drilled for brakes (but how about a shot that shows the rear bridge, presumably an arch with no brake hole?)
https://nkilgariff.com/CBcats/Cat_53/CB1953_Cat.htm
Another clue to age is naturally the serial number but I haven't found the same spreadsheet for pre-Holdsworthy CBs as are kept for Holdsworthy era marques (Holdsworth, Claud Butler, Freddie Grubb, etc.) plus what years used the grease-fitting on BB shell
https://nkilgariff.com/CBcats/Cat_53/CB1953_Cat.htm
Another clue to age is naturally the serial number but I haven't found the same spreadsheet for pre-Holdsworthy CBs as are kept for Holdsworthy era marques (Holdsworth, Claud Butler, Freddie Grubb, etc.) plus what years used the grease-fitting on BB shell
Likes For unworthy1:
#11
Wheelman
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Putney, London UK
Posts: 861
Bikes: 1982 Holdsworth Avanti (531), 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked 691 Times
in
347 Posts
Yep, looks like Jan 1950.
There's a 1951 catalogue on here: https://nkilgariff.com/ClaudButler.htm
Check out (2) New Allrounder Bi-laminations
There's a 1951 catalogue on here: https://nkilgariff.com/ClaudButler.htm
Check out (2) New Allrounder Bi-laminations
Likes For Aardwolf:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,834 Times
in
1,998 Posts
Original to hold on the headbadge would be drive-screws?
nice details, no sense of geometry.
nice details, no sense of geometry.
#13
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
I'll get some pics, but everything points to 1950 I agree. The dropouts are even longer than '51 and mine has the custom option of the 1.125" diameter top tube (offered in 1950 pretty sure). It isn't drilled for brakes (thank goodness).
__________________
Last edited by Erzulis Boat; 01-18-24 at 02:44 PM.
Likes For Erzulis Boat:
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,146
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 269 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4538 Post(s)
Liked 6,454 Times
in
3,712 Posts
This is fantastic, we seem to be swimming in British goodness lately, Holdsworth's, Mercian's, CB's, a Few Raleigh's for good measure and others.
Likes For merziac:
#16
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
As to the dating- I have read/heard that the prefix on the serial (it's 2 parts) is the year stamped either YY/M or YY/MM, but someone also said that it was the suffix (dating digits), so a bit of confusion when I grabbed it (and I grabbed it!).
Nothing in 1943 matched (433 suffix) so January 1950 (501) made perfect sense. I do not know if prefix/suffix got dyslexic sometimes, but I would think Y/M would definitely make sense as the first set of digits. But, then again those guys drive on the wrong side of the road, so who knows?
The "U" on the BB has been noted before, but I have not heard anything on what that means.
Nothing in 1943 matched (433 suffix) so January 1950 (501) made perfect sense. I do not know if prefix/suffix got dyslexic sometimes, but I would think Y/M would definitely make sense as the first set of digits. But, then again those guys drive on the wrong side of the road, so who knows?
The "U" on the BB has been noted before, but I have not heard anything on what that means.
__________________
#17
Wheelman
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Putney, London UK
Posts: 861
Bikes: 1982 Holdsworth Avanti (531), 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked 691 Times
in
347 Posts
Here's a 1951 Allrounder on Ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125611580056?hash=item1d3f089a98:gDMAAOSwDONjcT4f
There are some differences:
Edit:
Here's the standard reference for Holdsworth / Claud Butler frame numbers:
https://nkilgariff.com/frame-numbers/
"pre 1959 Upto 7 digits. First 2 to 3 Digits Year/Month ..."
There are some differences:
- Seat stay tops
- Not track dropouts
Edit:
Here's the standard reference for Holdsworth / Claud Butler frame numbers:
https://nkilgariff.com/frame-numbers/
"pre 1959 Upto 7 digits. First 2 to 3 Digits Year/Month ..."
Last edited by Aardwolf; 01-18-24 at 02:57 PM.
Likes For Aardwolf:
#18
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
Here's a 1951 Allrounder on Ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125611580056?hash=item1d3f089a98:gDMAAOSwDONjcT4f
There are some differences:
Edit:
Here's the standard reference for Holdsworth / Claud Butler frame numbers:
https://nkilgariff.com/frame-numbers/
"pre 1959 Upto 7 digits. First 2 to 3 Digits Year/Month ..."
There are some differences:
- Seat stay tops
- Not track dropouts
Edit:
Here's the standard reference for Holdsworth / Claud Butler frame numbers:
https://nkilgariff.com/frame-numbers/
"pre 1959 Upto 7 digits. First 2 to 3 Digits Year/Month ..."
__________________
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,478
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked 2,312 Times
in
1,293 Posts
Very nice score! It would be tempting to build up as a single speed of some sorts just to be able to ride occasionally.
Likes For Kabuki12:
#20
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,821
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1398 Post(s)
Liked 1,343 Times
in
848 Posts
3-speed coaster brake, perhaps?
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
Likes For John E:
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 841
Bikes: 1981 Bianchi Specialissima, 1971 Bob Jackson. 2012 Kestrel 4000. 2012 Willier. 2016 Fuji Cross 1.1, 1950 Hetchins, 194X James Fothergill, 1971 Paramount P15, 1973 Paramount P12, 1963 Legnano
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 972 Times
in
399 Posts
The rat hole of options on how to build this up period correct is pretty open, and can be pretty expensive. Having 2 ( one - 1940's and a 1950) British frames fall into my lap I'm experiencing the fun of that right now.
Likes For SwimmerMike:
#23
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
To quote Pesci from Goodfellas- "It's because I'm stupid like that".
__________________
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Visalia, CA
Posts: 2,249
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 981 Post(s)
Liked 1,844 Times
in
609 Posts
That's a very nice frame and my favorite of the Claud Butler bilaminate lugs. If the Olympic Sprint I'd previously had was a '51 or earlier rather than the '52 with the new style lugs I probably wouldn't have been able to part with it.
Here's a bit of inspiration.
-Gregory
Here's a bit of inspiration.
-Gregory
Likes For Kilroy1988:
#25
Le Crocodile
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
Kilroy1988 That first pale blue one is especially incredible. Lovely, lovely.
__________________