3alarmer 

...when will they start doing it cheaper, do you think ? I'm happy you've finally joined the ranks of freedom to enjoy. Even if it's not as much enjoyment as I could get from CF.




...I especially like the part where he worked in "more durable". Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic is, indeed, a magical material. Now is where someone usually posts about how they use it in airplanes. It's been a long time since I've seen a steel airplane. But none of my bicycles usually leave the ground unless I ****ed up. Not a big downhill mountain biker any more.

3alarmer 

...nobody ever remembers the Markleeville Death Ride, I guess because it's not a race format.

3alarmer 

https://road.cc/content/feature/why-wider-tyres-road-bikes-are-here-stay-307245
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Eric F 

Cheaper than what? What price point would you consider "cheaper"?

3alarmer 

...I don't know. I was reacting to an earlier post by the guy I was asking, talking about how cheap steel was now, and how we ought to be celebrating. There was another post earlier, by someone else, anticipating cheaper CF frames, after the early adopters phase had passed.

That's kind of a tricky question, wouldn't you say ? If you really need someone to fight with here, I'm not the guy. I mostly just post when I see some of the more ridiculous stream of consciousness arguments about the magic of carbon fiber reinforced plastic as a frame material for bicycles. Truthfully, I'm unlikely, (at my age and with the number of bicycles I already own and ride,) to ever buy another bike.

But if you really need an answer...yes, and no. This is not the first time you have addressed me in general cycling. If I've done something to offend you, let me know. Feel free to ignore anything I say here. I have an unfortunate tendency to quote articles from the cycling press that are contrarian in nature. Those guys I'm quoting might be right or wrong. Nobody pays me to write for cycling news, so I'm just stuck with my own opinions based on experience, experimentation, and riding.

3alarmer 

...looked at on its face, it seems to make a compelling argument. But the argument is based on the idea that, somehow, makers of CF frames are manufacturing them using custom layups that will satisfy every individual's need for "comfortable ride" (whatever that is). The reality is that they do offer different models, in a few different sizes, but that all of those production bikes are exactly the same in design and layup, if you buy that model from that maker.

Is that "impossible with steel" ? I guess it is, if you accept Atlas Shrugged 's essential earlier premise that every steel framed bike from the '60's through the 90's was essentially the same ride. My "experience" with them, over that same time period, gives me a distinctly different takeaway. And it's based on riding at least several hundred, if not several thousand, miles on each of more bikes than I can honestly recall. Well over 80-100 of them over that span of time.

Look, back ten or fifteen years ago, there was a standing joke in the world of bicycle, where you ironically called everything "laterally stiff but vertically compliant". Because it showed up so much in every new CF frame ad. Are they "laterally stiff but vertically compliant" ? Sure, maybe they are. But CF frames are designed and made to a standard, unless maybe you ride for one of the large manufacturers teams and they can do custom layups for you. With steel, in its heyday, there were people using the material to produce custom frames, designed to order, as small boutique makers. And believe it or not, they did produce frames that were both comfortable and reliable, that weighed in maybe 6-8 pounds heavier than UCI minimums now.

Were they laterally stiff and vertically compliant ? I don't know what the standards are, just like I don't know what your standards are for "cheaper". I do know that one of the reasons much wider tires are in vogue right now s because a lot of CF race frames would be uncomfortable without them...at least for most people. I already gave you a quote from the Schwalbe guy with regard to that, and he's making a living marketing bike tires.


I'm not here for an argument. Just stop peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining, and we'll be fine.

Eric F 

Easy, there. I'm not looking to fight or try to prove you wrong. I thought it might be an interesting topic of discussion.

It seems to me that CF has gotten cheaper at the lower end, but also more expensive at the higher end. I was talking with a Campagnolo rep and some other folks at a gravel event recently, and in the conversation he mentioned that some Chinese mass-producers of CF frames sell them (wholesale in China, I understood) for less than $100. That said, I expect that low-end aluminum and steel frames would be even less than that, based on the price of BSOs at the megamarts. I wouldn't want to ride any of those, however.

My most recent frame purchase was a Niner RLT 9 RDO (high-end CF) that I got on close-out for $1200. IMO, it easily compares in weight and quality to frames being sold for more than 2x that much. 20 years ago, I paid $2500 for what was at the top end of the CF world (Time VX, comparable to the Colnago C40). I'm not sure what my point is with those examples, however.

3alarmer 

.
...I can readily imagine that all price points will eventually be represented in CF bicycles. The material itself is not especially expensive, more the mold manufacturing process, and the issues with turning out a final product that is both light in weight, and not dangerous to the user. Kind of like the airplane parts everyone is always talking about, quality control standards can vary. And there's little recourse if you hurt yourself riding a Vengay, versus a Venge. Mostly, I see posts and threads all the time here, about flaws and damage to steel frames and aluminum frames people bought used.

So I wonder how in the world anyone will be able to confidently buy a used CF frame, given the complexities involved in various potential modes of damage. I guess the number of those threads will increase, because few of us have access to ultrasound scanners out in the garage. So the idea that it lasts forever, and is indestructible, seems like a reach to me. HOw will that help if you can't assess damage other than by faith ?

Aluminum cold forming manufacturing has progressed beyond anything I ever imagined would be possible. And the stuff is light, relatively cheap, and can be recycled into beer cans. It' less durable than steel, and certainly the fatigue limits are less. But it's cheap and available, as well as light. I don't really know the answers or the future. Weight is not a big concern for me... I set up my bikes here more for practical use, with fenders for wet weather and maybe a bag so I can lose a layer as I get warmed up. The bikes that make the most sense for me. were designed and developed by the French, many, many years ago. They're not laterally stiff, but they are plenty vertically compliant. And I'll never need a dropper post, or some kind of vibration absorbing head tube.

If I find a bicycle too stiff, and don't enjoy the road feel, I just up my tire size a little, until I get it to where I want it to feel.

Eric F 

I have bought 3 used CF bikes in the last 4 years, and would have no qualms about doing it again. IMO, the fears about CF spontaneously assploding are largely over-blown. All frame materials can break. This is a fact that I have accepted as a part of the risks of participating in the activity.

I'm a big believer that folks should ride the kind of bike they want to ride, in whatever way is best for them. There are tons of options out there, an a million ways to customize it to fit your needs/desires. For me, high-end CF frames, built with high-quality parts, with some mild weight-weenieism, is my current preference, and I often ride those bikes at the limits of my fitness and skills. If you like to ride the same kind of bikes the same way, cool. If not, also cool. Ride bikes. Be happy.

3alarmer 

...lest you misunderstand, I am able to assess the status of a steel frame or an aluminum frame pretty well by visual, tactile, and sonic (tapping) inspection. I'm not worried about DF exploding, although sometimes it does. My concerns are simply based on the difficulties of assessing damage that might (or might not) lead to failure. I realize that there are inherent risks in cycling. I ride around cars all the time.

My concerns are purely personal, and again, I don't think I'm unique in this assessment. Any material can fail, as you say. What I'm talking about is mode of failure, predictability of it from visual inspection, and the problems inherent in this aspect of it as a material for bike frames (and wheel rims). The airplane guys are doing regular inspections, with ultrasound and x-ray equipment. I'd like to be at least as safe as Boeing.

asgelle

That might not be saying much.

SoSmellyAir

Yep, especially these days.

PeteHski

Maybe you just bought the wrong model bike for your needs. My CF endurance bike is very comfortable and pretty fast. It’s semi-aero and not mega-stiff. Carbon bars and seatpost are far more comfortable than their alloy equivalents. Hope your next bike works better for you, but what it’s made out of is only part of the story.

3alarmer 

Boeing Directs Airlines to Check Cockpit Seats on 787s After Latam Incident

....who among us has not had at least one incident of saddle adjustment slippage ? Let him cast the first stone.

Eric F 

Cool. You do it the way you’re comfortable, and so will I.

georges1

Well there are light weight steel frames (columbus, dedacciai, reynolds) and light weight aluminium frames (columbus,dedacciai and reynolds)and then there are also the wheels and transmission if all is matched and the bike fits you, you will ride with the bike with pleasure.I have ridden carbon framed bikes but they were too uncomfortable for me. My oldest road bike frame is a steel frame and one my most comfortable frames to ride. Even in mountain bikes, the majority of my fleet has steel frames and the rest are aluminium. My hybrid gravel bike is also a 1993 giant steel frame with upgraded componentry.

zymphad

I think we all agree that bike does matter if it motivates you to go out and ride

With my new build, I'm constantly thinking about when and how I can go out for a ride in between work and babysitting.