rosefarts

Ongoing issue, I'll post pictures in the next day or two.

The bike is a Ritchey Swiss Cross V2. Anniversary paintjob even #62. I'm the second owner of the frame, the first owner crashed hard enough to put a slight dent in the rear triangle. Word from Ritchey is that this is not an issue.

I'm the second owner of the bike and I've had it about 3 years.

My first iteration of shifting was SRAM Rival 11sp. I liked the hood ergonomics but I didn't like the physical act of shifting the double tap. It hung somewhere on the middle of cassette, down worse than up. It was okay since I could hit that gear but it was a bit finicky. No amount of adjusting or perfect cable routing could correct it.

My second iteration was a weird one. It was Archer Trail DIX, using at first the old Rival deraileur and later an XT with a clutch. I had two very nearly identical cassettes. One shifted perfect and the other hung up somewhere in the middle of the cassette. I just used the cassette that worked well. The other one was clearly not damaged but with two cassettes, I didn't think about it too much. I didn't like the long and flat hoods of the TRP brakes or that I couldn't access the shifter from the hoods. I also had some complaints about the 11 speed cassette gear jumps.

My third (and hopefully final) iteration is Campy Ekar. Finally I'm extremely pleased with the ergonomics (pun sort of intended). Jumping from 11 speed to 13 did the trick for gear jumps for me. The trouble is that I'm back to the gear hanging on approximately the same part of the cassette as earlier. I can work around it but it's a bit crunchy for such a high end system.

Obvious troubleshooting things.
-I replaced the hanger with a brand new one - no change.
-I have brand new cables and housing. Routed with no extreme bends.

The derailleur looks crooked to the cassette to me. The hanger measures perfect. I honestly don't know what to do. I'm beginning to think the frame is bent but everything seems to line up perfectly.

Same problem on 3 drivetrains on 3 different cassettes.

Ugh

jccaclimber

A prefect derailer hanger will align perfectly on a perfect frame. Derailer hangers even new can be imperfect, and you know your frame is imperfect. Use a derailer alignment checking tool on the installed hanger. It will probably need a slight tweak while installed in the frame.

FBinNY 

To the OP

I (for one) don't need the life history, but would like a clear, concise description of the specific problem.

Also, to be sure we're on the same page ---- derailleur hangers are aligned to the plane of the wheel, and have nothing to do with the frame. The frame could be a pretzel, but the aligned hanger will orient the RD to the cassette, which is concentric with the wheel.

Trakhak

At this point, I'd take the bike to a trustworthy mechanic at a good local bike shop. If the problem shows up only while riding the bike, ask the mechanic to check the bike out on the road, before and after repairing it.

zacster

If the derailleur is crooked to the wheel/cassette, then it needs to be straightened. It doesn't have to be the hanger that is bent either, but the frame it is attached to may not be perfectly straight even if it looks to be straight. I have the alignment tool but unless you live in NYC that won't do you any good so take it to a shop. It may be that the hanger needs to be bent slightly to align everything.

oldbobcat

Often a rear derailleur will have twist in the cage. Does the troublesome shift behave differently when using the other chainring? You might have a bent cage. After aligning the hanger, observe the vertical alignment of the cage in relation to the cassette cogs or rear wheel, the longitudinal alignment in relation to the centerline of the frame, and the alignment of the tension pulley to the chain line, in various gear combinations front and rear. I've often taken an adjustable crescent wrench to the cage at the tension pulley and given it a small twist.

mpetry912 

I think he means that the derailleur pulleys are not in the plane of the cassette cogs.

this is not uncommon and can be caused by crash damage or who knows what.

what might have worked in the 8 speed era just won't pass for 10-11-12 speed setups, all the chainline, hanger, and derailleur alignment become more critical if proper shifting performance is to be hoped for.

don't be afraid to just bend the thing back into alignment. confirm with the Mark 1 eyeball and then test to see if the shifting improves

/markp

Kai Winters

Find a shop with a dropout alignment tool to see if and if so, how much the dropouts are out of alignment.
It is possible to 'cold set' out of alignment dropouts but it is not fun at all and requires a lot of brute strength.
You could send the frame to a frame repair/build shop where they are more experienced and have to correct tools and knowledge how to use them but not an inexpensive way to go.
Never buy a crashed frame...looks are always deceiving.
You can eyeball the alignment of the dropouts yourself and using a large adjustable wrench and possibly an extender align the dropouts yourself...slow is accurate...fast is disastrous...but it takes a lot of brute strength and faith and you have to go beyond the alignment to align it as frame tubing wants to return to its current state/position...not for the faint of heart.
I've done it a few times and hated every second of it but with the help and eyeballs of other shop wrenches we were successful...but man is it terrifying.
Good luck and keep us informed.

Aardwolf

Here's a way of checking (and adjusting) the hanger alignment, if you've got a spare rear wheel around:


I used it on my Holdsworth Cylone and it worked fine, but that's 6 speed so YMMV.

Kontact

Dropout alignment is common and not that difficult on a steel frame.

If doing it without proper tools, use and axle and locknuts rather than a wrench. Or a whole wheel, clamped outside the stays.

rosefarts

Thanks for the replies so far.

Yep, I’m long winded. Compared to more typical posts of “I can’t get air in my wheel, do I need new cogs?” I figured some might appreciate a few extra details. If it helps, I threw a pork shoulder on the smoker at 3am this morning. That might not be relevant.

It’s not a bad tweak if it’s tweaked. And it’s steel. I don’t regret getting this bike. If it’s not my favorite drop bar bike ever, it’s my second favorite. It’s not unridable, I’m extremely picky.

FWIW, the hanger passes the “wheel on the outside test.

I never thought to test the dropouts. It’s a thru axle and it all goes together just fine. I would think I’d be wrecking bearings, have a stuck axle, or just be unable to get the wheel on if there were an issue. I can check.

13 speeds is a lot of gears to get right. I had a pretty similar experience with 11 speeds on the same bike though. That’s why I posted.

So here is the strange part. I fiddled for quite some time yesterday. Both on the stand and pedaling up and down the street, stopping to adjust by an 1/8th turn. I was never happy. I figured it would annoy me a bit but I had a fun ride planned for today and I wasn’t going to switch genres over it.

So for 3.5 hours of hero dirt today, it didn’t miss a single shift. As slow as whatever you need a 38x44 for and fast enough to use but not spin out 38x10. Legitimately Campagnolo quality the whole day.

So, umm, maybe my bike knows if I talk bad about it?

Kontact

I'm at the limits of memory, but I think Ekar shifts better if you adjust the shift paddle reach adjustment to there is some distance from the brake lever.

rosefarts

If they are too close together, the paddle will jam on the brake lever, preventing any shifting until you figure out what is happening and flip it straight. It’s a very simple adjustment and it’ll never happen again.

That’s more along the lines of “learning curve” for that particular group. Not a real problem long term.

I still don’t know what is going on. If I ran a shop, I wouldn’t release the bike to a customer the way it’s shifting in a stand right now, or in 100 meter ellipses in the street. But out actually riding, it’s great. Probably the higher cadence I keep vs the workstand. It’s hard to say though.

zacster

If you can't realign the hanger using the tool itself, don't do it. The tool gives you a lot of leverage but don't force it. Just a slight bend. You'll otherwise snap the hanger if aluminum or seriously bend a steel frame.

Kontact

That's not what I'm talking about. In tests in the stand I saw that Ekar shifted poorly with the lever as it came out of the packaging. When I adjusted the shift lever to the rear some, the return shifting improved obviously. It was as if something was dragging internally that changing the reach affected.

Redbullet

I had an issue long time ago with a wrong aligned cage or other part of the derailleur (it was a new derailleur). Aligning the hanger with a tool did not fix it - which should have been expected, since the misalignment was in the derailleur itself, not in the hanger. I finally aligned the whole system by manually bending the hanger in such a way that looking from top, the chain looked to be positioned in a vertical plane starting from a cog to the lowest pulley. It was about one hour exercise of incrementally bending the cage and examining under concentrated light, until it looked ok. It worked perfectly until today, many thousands km. It is a Sram Force 22.
I think such solution worth a try here as well. It is best done at home, since a professional mechanic might not be patient to apply such a customized and unconventional method.

choddo

Surprised that alignment worked across the cassette

Redbullet

It did. During testing on middle cog, I noticed that there is an interval of +/- 3/4 or even +/- 1 rotation of the barrel adjustment where the operation is smooth. Maybe other cogs have a narrower interval, but the final setting in the middle satisfies all of them. With a perfectly aligned derailleur (and hanger), maybe the interval would have been large for all. But the final result is that all cogs are within a comfortable interval and shifting is almost 100% accurate and riding is noiseless, apart from "big-big" and the next one - which I think is to be expected.