CyclesMakaron

Over 2 weeks ago, a listing appeared on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/23470383439...dd90%7Ciid%3A1

(OMG)

Photo highlights:




The seller has made 22 (!!!) changes to the description of the offered item since the item was listed.

The frame is clearly an EMC product.
What do you think of this intriguing offer and its dramatically evolving description?
Preventing questions - I am the "charlatan from Poland".

Mr. 66

It does moderately surprise me that it does not have a front derailleur braze-on for being that year of manufacture.

I think the price is a tad wishful. The changing of text does not bother me, they are trying to maximize the sale for an rare item. It sounds like the seller is learning day to day about the piece.

KonAaron Snake 

My TSX badged Motorola team is actually 753. They had a sponsorship deal - so it could be just a sticker. Judging from the seatstay treatment, I think it's more likely Columbus given my (limited) knowledge of these. Mine also has no front derailleur hanger. I see nothing in the narrative to indicate an issue with the frame - it reads like he's getting a bunch of info from people and learning as he goes. Which is exactly what I did when I got mine. I was able to authenticate everything about mine with the Merckx people...frame material, that it was Steve Bauer's bike, etc.

As far as price - it’s high, but if you want a team bike. I wouldn’t sell mine any cheaper. I’ve offered mine for sale a few times, and gotten “that’s too high”. Ok - don’t buy it.

KonAaron Snake 

My serial number is C2210, and it was built July/August of 90'.

CyclesMakaron

How do you know that it is a team bike ?

KonAaron Snake 

His, or mine?

I have an email from the Merckx factory confirming that mine is what is described, when it was made, and who it was built for.

His has the same serial number format, which is a bit different from production as I recall. I don't remember the hanger being available production, and the steerer tube info conforms to my research as well. I am not an expert...and I don't have the build sheets, but it looks like what is being claimed to my eyes. How do you know it's not?

CyclesMakaron

With all due respect, your frame is certainly not the subject of our consideration.

C5668 is the normal serial number.
Number hanger is an option available to everyone.
The information from the card on the steering tube is interesting, but there is no photo of it (the seller promised it over a week ago).

The frame was built in the spring of 1991.
Kaspars Ozers became a Team Motorola rider in September 1994.

How do we know it's a team frame?

KonAaron Snake 

I have no special knowledge here...other than it looks right to me, and the serial number seems consistent with my own. I don't recall having seen number hangers on the team livery frames, but Merckx also did orders. Caveat emptor, but what's he saying, for me, tracks. That said, I'm not spending cash either.

The fork steerer markings, and you're right that there's no photo, but he's claiming it in the ad (so if not there, he's paying shipping both ways...buyer is safe) are also a sign to me...and it's not like the guy picked Lance Armstrong. I think it's also possible that it was a more generic team bike not built for a specific person and meant as a reserve.

CyclesMakaron

The first (of the currently 25) version of the frame description stated that this was the frame used in racing by Eric Heiden.
I collect EMC frame markings. Finding a team frame with a serial number and user is a valuable find for me.
I wrote to the seller - on September 25:
"Can you show the exact pics of the card stuck on the fork steering tube? This could definitively explain the uniqueness of this frame."
Answer:
"Are you looking for photos of the number hanger lug on the top tube? I don't know what you mean by the card on the front steering tube. The decal on the front steering tube? "
The seller doesn't distinguish between "fork" and "front" - this worried me a bit.
I check the story about Eric Heiden - unfortunately he was not a Team Motorola rider, he was a team manager there. The frame was not used in racing, but it may have been built for Team Motorola (as was the confirmed frame built for Ochowicz). Moreover - in this situation it should be in good condition (and is).
For full happiness it is enough for the seller to find the fork, then the steering tube, and finally to read the inscriptions on the card.
I wrote to the seller - September 28:
"Did you know (because others know) that Eric Heiden was not a Team Motorola rider?
If it's a profi frame, it must have belonged to another rider - only the markings on the fork steering tube can confirm that.
What are you waiting for - show them."
The seller's answer:
"First you say card. Now it's markings. I am not waiting for anything. You can tell me what I'm waiting for. I am waiting for a readable sentence from you. I know he wasn't on the team. He was riding with the team and I have confirmed this. So if you can come out and tell me what the heck a card is on the steering tube, which I have no idea what you mean, because there is no "card" on the steering tube, then let me know. Also, I would not ship this to you anyway."

From this point on, the avalanche of revisions to the frame description begins.

I wrote to the seller - September 29:
"I don't buy fakes.
Heiden was not raider team Motorola.
You have no confirmation that it's a team frame.
On the card that should be on the fork steering tube you would have found confirmation that it was a team frame - you have no confirmation.
Once someone told an interesting story that you believed - don't expect others to take it seriously."
The answer - specifically 4 answers:
"I have no idea what a card is. What card? You're a fake. It's the amateurs like you that ruin auctions. Again what is a card? Do you need an English lesson to translate that for me? Can you please, in the depth of your ignorance tell me what a card is? Hilarious. Another self proclaimed expert on nothing. Typical eBay armchair fraud. Thanks. And when I find out what a card is in your broken English I'll let you know."
The guy still couldn't find the fork steering tube and the card shown in the photos.
I decided to help and sent a photo.


"Ah, you mean a sticker? Is that what you call a "card" in life? Seriously, the sticker around the tube that is a "label"? Here is the States, we call it a sticker or a label or maybe a sticker that contains a build sheet. You couldn't say sticker? It's a card or markings? It's amazing that experts like you cannot even get together basic critical thinking skills to call it what it is - ah, yes, I guess I will photograph that label or sticker to see what anyone can make of it. Please, go talk to your wife or your co-workers and see if you have a communication deficit. An expert that can't even express what someone is supposed to look at. Best of luck, you're going to need it."
He found! Now he'll take a photo, attach it to an offer, and if the magic TMT appears there, everything will start to fit together - hurray!
"I read and photographed the sticker and/or label/ and or whatever you call it. It's real, it has someones initials from the team in that year (confirmed), the size, and Team Motorola. You were right on one thing - that it's not Eric Heidens. It is a team member though. Thank you for the insults, the hassles, and the general malaise you brought to my auction. Please look and see the photo of the label and we'll see what a clown you are. Again, thanks for calling my real Team bike a fake when I now have the evidence, and you, well, are a sad armchair critic as I would expect."
At this point, some very serious problems arose - the salesman was clearly off: I never wrote that the frame did not belong to Heiden, I never wrote about the frame being a fake. I also never received a photo of these markings.
"Well, it's not a fake. You are. I don't take kindle to being called a fraud and a fake. You're a bully
The correct rider of the bike with the correct build information is now posted. Feel free never to buy it."

At this point, disaster struck: the seller changed the "unconfirmed" description (no photo with markings) to clearly "fake"!The following information appeared (transcribed from a piece of paper) in the offer:
C5668 - without dating or commentary
KO - read as the initials Kaspars Ozers
57 - read as frame size (correctly)
P - no comment
TMT - no comment

Finally, there's TMT! But this is not the promised photo - confirmation lacking.

The real nightmare was reading KO as the initials of the rider - the seller based the entire "once again corrected" description on this mistake.

I wrote - September 30:
1...
2. bad news for you: the previous description of your frame (the one with nothing documented, but with a beautiful story about Eric Heiden) you replaced with a completely false description.
3. let me explain to you what you found on the note attached to the fork steering tube (no one told you what to look for or where to look - right?):
- C5668 is the serial number of the frame built in spring 1991
- KO is actually KC which is the code of the tube manufacturer - Columbus
- 57 is the length of the seat tube measured c-c.
- P is the factory employee code
- TMT is (and now focus as never before in your life) the frame paint code reserved for Team Motorola during the 1991-1994 seasons.
4. if you, in your insane avidity, hadn't pretended to be an idiot ( and would have found a piece of paper with this information right away and shown it to me) you would have received a few days ago (for free - yes, that's how I help Merckx frame salesmen) the following (correct and error-free) description of your frame:" Frame built in spring 1991 at the Eddy Merckx Cycles factory in Meise for Team Motorola. Columbus TSX/SPX/SP tubes, size 57 cm. There is a high probability that the user of the frame was the team manager, the famous Eric Heiden. "
The end, that's all.
5. if you think your current description is true, you should be able to answer some questions (buyers can be smart):
- How is it possible that a frame was built in the spring of 1991 for a rider contracted in the fall of 1994?
- How is it possible that the frame has "Eddy Merckx" stickers when Team Motorola frames in the 1995 and 1996 seasons had "CALOI" stickers?
...

Seller - no comment.Description changes.

The hero of the frame auction is Kaspars Ozers - a man who could not have anything to do with it. The mysterious Patrick enters the arena - a former EMC employee who heroically decodes a secret message - unfortunately wrongly.

I wrote - October 1:
"I was happy to see another post about me (went to FB) and the third description of the same frame - obviously still false.
I've got to rub you the wrong way - I can calmly withstand confrontation with any "former EMC employee" on any issues regarding manufacturing, design, markings, catalogs etc. As it happens, I've met (read) a few and somehow they didn't surprise me with anything.
Patrick - a former employee of Eddy Merckx Cycles ?
And what was he doing there - sweeping the factory floor ?
When and in what position did he work ?
Give some specifics, I'd be happy to talk to him.
But first he should explain the mystery of Kaspars Ozers - how come a rider contracted since September 1994 for the 1995 season uses a 1991 frame with stickers that were no longer used at Team Motorola (change of sponsor) ?
Expert Patrick explained it? Or maybe he got so tired of the inhumanly difficult decryption of information available for several years on bikeforums (BigSourcEMerCkx) for anyone who can read ?
Mister Ozers will undoubtedly be surprised - until now he thought he got a brand new, "tailor-made", modern frame for the 1995 season and here's such a surprise - he was riding a four-year-old mangled scrap with the wrong name on the frame."

Seller - no comment.Description changes.

I wrote - October 2:
"Has "Patrick" explained the situation to you yet?
Chronology:
- in spring 1991 the frame was built, a piece of paper was attached to the fork steering tube (surely original, as it is splashed with original paint - this is just another of your unsupported claims, photo missing).
- on the card is the TMT paint code (that's great - the frame was custom built for Team Motorola)
- on the card is also KO - in your opinion (and that of the expert "Patrick"?) these are the initials of Kaspars Ozers, a Team Motorola rider (this is a misreading - unfortunately deliberate. It is KC - a designation commonly used on frames built from Columbus tubes).
- Kaspars Ozers makes his way to Team Motorola in the autumn of 1994.
Question 1: who at EMC had the supernatural gift of clairvoyance to foresee Ozers' contracting 3.5 years in advance and build him the perfect bike without any measurements (marking him with the initials KO)?
Question 2: why didn't the clairvoyant foresee the change of sponsor and immediately propose to put "CALOI" lettering on the frame?
Question 3: why does "Patrick" not exist? If he exists point out any traces of his activities on the internet or anywhere.
Question 4: why did this interesting frame go to the only fool in the world who has been able to screw up its description so neatly (3 times already!)?"

Seller - no comment. Description changes.

I wrote - October 3:
"Every day a new description, every day sillier.
The only one concrete you have given so far is the serial number - date of production: spring 1991.
Photo of the card - none.
Other than that: stories, speculation, non-existent "former employees" (salute to "Patrick"), announcements of "contacts" - zero evidence.
The only sensible description of this frame I have already sent you (assuming you didn't make up this "piece of paper" too) - don't litter, post it, surely you won't mislead anyone with it."

Seller - you know. Description changes.

I wrote - October 4:
"Congratulations on your progress in getting closer to the truth. Admittedly, if "KO" starts to be "possibly tubing more on this later" then the whole Kaspars Ozers legend ceases to make sense - what about "former employee Patrick" and "many people" (not to mention potential buyers)?
Once again: this is KC, the designation used since 1981 on all EMC frames built with Columbus Cyclex tubing (sometimes in the kc version, especially handwritten).
You can, as usual, present this information as a discovery of your own, "Patrick" or "many people" - it just makes me laugh."

Seller - no comment. Description changes.

The most touching in these descriptions are these insignificant "distractions" that create "information noise". "Patrick", contact with Ozers on facebook, discovery of Italian thread, discovery of the 1992 catalog, quotes from people that have nothing to do with the frame - all this wonderful pointless hustle and bustle. And the only element explaining the problem - the photo of the card - is still unavailable. Why?

Last change in description: Kaspars Ozers started being (Kaspars Ozers?)
You can see that "Patrick" and "many people" are working hard.

KonAaron Snake 

Ehhh - I’d chalk most of it up to language barriers and some people can be irritable.

Hopefully he’ll get an answer from Merckx - I remember it taking a while.

jet sanchEz

Yes, sounds like a "lost in translation" issue, don't sweat it

I have a Merckx Corsa Extra that is made out of Columbus TSX tubing and I've been told a couple of times that this is not possible because Corsa Extra frames were only made of SLX tubes

*shrug*

Trying to convince someone of something over the internet is pretty hard...

CyclesMakaron

Gentlemen, I apologize, but you must be joking.
Did you really think that from what I posted the translation issues were the most important?
There are 5 sources of indisputable information about the profi framework of EMC:
- markings on the BB cover: the photo only shows the serial number on the right side, the left side is not shown. The number indicates spring 1991.
- Card on fork steering tube. Photo missing even though it was supposedly taken 10 days ago. No confirmed information.
- frame tag. Very rarely found in seat tube. No confirmed information.
- Frame build sheet. No confirmed information.
- Lists of frame serial designations made by mechanics. Team Motorola mechanics created such lists for sure, excerpts of some of them are available on the Internet. I did not find the designation C5668 on any of these lists that I saw. No confirmed information.
This is all the evidence I have - the frame was built in the spring of 1991. The end - that's all - the rest is:
- the previous owner's story about Eric Heiden (according to the seller). At first the most important, then disappears, then appears in an altered version.
- a story about a card (not confirmed by a photograph)
- misintentional "reading" of KO (from where?) as initials of rider. In fact, it is the designation of Columbus tubes (KC or kc).
- mad story about Kaspars Ozers, a rider working for Team Motorola since the fall of 1994. Appears instead of the story about Eric Heiden, Currently faded, Heiden returns.
- contact with "former EMC employee Patrick." Have you heard of him? Where and when did he work? What has he published about EMC so far and where?
- Discovering the EMC 1992 catalog and that Corsa Extra frames were built with different types of tubing.
- The discovery of the Italian thread in the BB cover.
This is ridiculous.
After all, all it takes is one photo with the frame number and the letters TMT - and this guy was informed about it. 10 days ago.

Imagine you own this frame and want to sell it on ebay, You think the frame is special: it's a team Motorola frame Merckx TSX !
What do you do?
- A photo of the complete markings on the BB cover.
- A photo of the card on the fork steering tube.
- You look for the frame number on the Team Motorola mechanics listings.
- A few photos of the frame and its details.
- You add a story about Eric Heiden.

What does this seller do?
A rich and confusing description of his dramatic adventures, intentions, contacts and "discoveries".
No specifics about the frame he is selling.

I have a request - ask him for this one precious photo. He has had it for 10 days, you may be the only ones to see it. Unless it doesn't exist.

rccardr 

Maybe it’s just time to let this one go.
Clearly the guy doesn’t realize that you’re pretty much universally recognized within the online vintage bike community as the top expert on identifying Merckx framesets.
Understand that you’re irritated and upset, but hey, it’s the Internet. Let it go, you have better things to do.

merziac

Maybe, the only clear thing to me is this clown does know that CM is an expert and is going to great length to discredit him for calling him out.

This seller is delusional on his price and knows it and doesn't think anyone should question him.

His diatribe in the efbay listing calls him and us out as hack amateur's and should not be tolerated IMO.

You're right about letting it go here but we are included to a large degree so we should continue to watch this.

merziac

Also looks like seller is in full CYA efbay mode as he has added ? marks throughout his ad, but goes in to even greater BS mode about all the help he has refused to consider no matter what.

repechage

Other brands without stampings are so much easier.

CyclesMakaron

Gentlemen - clarification.
This is not about me - this man can not offend me (in my opinion, he has personal problems, maybe he is ill).
Even more so, he can not take away the reputation of this forum (this is impossible at all).
I am anxious to confirm the authenticity of the factory markings of one EMC frame - it was so in the beginning.
Later I decided that it would be nice if the buyer knew what he was buying - this meant establishing the correct description of this frame.
That should end the story.
But now I'm reading some of the comments in this thread and ...I don't get it.
The guy changes the description 25 times - "he is learning and correcting". - then which version of the description of the same item is true? Number 1, number 5 (completely different from number1), number 15 (a mixture of 1 and 5) or maybe number 25 (contradicting the others)? Doesn't it really matter? Especially since all these descriptions are false, and the guy doesn't correct anything.
Explaining everything with the famous "lost in translation" - really? In that case, ask the seller for that miserable photo using pure and precise American English - the faster and clearer the better.
"This is the Internet." - yes, this is definitely the Internet. This forum is also the Internet - and therefore everyone should tolerate any nonsense and falsehood published here? Because it's just the Internet? Sorry, I belong to a different civilization - looks like it's increasingly extraterrestrial.

I'm a simple EMC guy

CyclesMakaron

I encourage you to revisit the offer - it has definitely gained in absurdity (no one has written a song about me so far).
I encourage you to write to the seller asking for a photo of the "piece of paper" placed on the fork steering tube.

embankmentlb

A nerve has been struck somewhere.

CyclesMakaron

I would prefer that the issue not be about "Central Europe" and "West Slavic Nations," but apparently this unhappy man is trying to cure his complexes.
I wonder what other topics he will bring up as part of his "distraction" operation.
And all it takes is one photo - I am increasingly beginning to doubt its existence (I would really like to be wrong).

JulesCW 

For your own mental health just let it go. You do not want to buy this, you and the seller are unlikely to see eye to eye on it, and the opinions of bikeforum posters on the interactions between you and the seller are not worth getting worked up about, IMHO. eBay is, as always, caveat emptor. Move on. Any possible buyer can see the descriptions on the sale page and make his or her own judgements.

BMC_Kid 

As an outsider to the tit-for-tat exchange, I seriously doubt that you "would really like to be wrong", not that there's anything wrong with that. It just comes across to me that it is self-serving to make that claim.

As a seller on eBay and elsewhere of bicycles and accoutrements, I've had exchanges with "so-called experts" who have seemingly in good faith, given me "information" to correct a listing or such. Generally, I take it all with a grain of salt. Yes, you might be the bestest expert in the world on EMC bikes but after the second or third exchange, you really should drop it. I can see it from the point of view of the seller as almost borderline harassment at that point. It is obvious he does not want nor need your opinion to sell to the world of under-over-informed buyers. As always, YMMV and that dog don't always hunt.

BMC_Kid 

Evidently, and on multiple fronts.

CyclesMakaron

Thank you, but my mental health is not threatened in the slightest.
I would very much like to be wrong - please no psychological pseudo-analysis, anyone can doubt what they want, but please do not attribute bad intentions to me - because it would be nice to add a confirmed Team Motorola frame to my list. This was the reason for my contact with this vendor.
For mysterious reasons, some of you are treating this matter as very ambitious for me - a big mistake. I would never call myself the greatest expert on EMC issues - I'm good enough in this area and it doesn't get any better.
Every day I learn new facts - this often means modifications (serious) of my knowledge.
Over the past week I have revised the description of the 8 EMC frames - sometimes I have been asked to do so, sometimes not. Most of the time I had good news for callers, sometimes less good. I don't collect thanks, I'm happy to help. No one reacts with aggression - in the worst case nothing changes in the incorrect description.
If someone thinks I'm attacking an innocent seller by asking for a single photo he refers to in his description (but doesn't publish it), it only falls to me to express my deep disappointment at the total confusion of the value system and the meaning of words.
Poor harassed man.

BMC_Kid 

I had $10 riding on your response. Nailed it! Thanks!

Think I’ll go double or nothing..