ilynne

It amazes me that bikeforums is so strictly censored and ravelry -- a community of freaking KNITTERS -- allows whatever foul language you want to use. What screams "easily offended granny" more than knitters? Apparently, we have thicker skins.

Apologies in advance if my comment is the straw that breaks the camel's back on this thread.

Ekdog

+1

champignon

There's a balance that needs to be reached in order for an online forum to work. At one extreme would be the old "usenet newsgroup" type of unmoderated forum. Ultimately, they tend to get taken over by one or a few self-indulgent loudmouths or others with (perhaps) diagnosable maladies. After this happens, the regular contributors vanish.

On the other end is the "over-moderated" type of web forum where the goal is to avoid even a semblance of animosity or conflict. This type of moderation usually results in the departure of those who are generally the most creative and interesting participants, leaving only the bland and sterile behind, ultimately leading to a boring and more or less useless forum; I have participated in several forums moderated in this fashion, that degenerated to this level, and ultimately left them when I found them to no longer be worth my time. Generally speaking this type of moderation results from either a control complex on the part of the owner, or more offensively, when the owner views his forum as being little more than an excuse for online advertising, and fears offending anyone.

For the record, I haven't seen either of these problems on this sub-forum, but then I haven't participated here for very long, either.

cuzzinit

Huh..?? Origami bikes are about the same price as comparable Dahon entry level bikes.
[/QUOTE]



Where ? i never found that.... Best i found was $200+ more for comparable model from Dahon

cuzzinit

i bought an Origami Cricket last week. Everything is shiny i got what i more or less what i expected, since i have another chinese made bike. i emailed Paul Pinigus quite a bit, he even agreed to let a friend in the area look/ride one. My friend flaked but what i got is ok. i didn't have the money to get a Dahon, but i did buy a reasonable bike for the money. i took it to a shop to get a look over and adjustment, they thought it was decent for the money.

vmaniqui

you should have bought a dahon bike from thor and you would not have experienced this problem/issue. Good luck and hopefully it gets resolved.

champignon

In the end, we are all dead

ShermCraig

Funny, I am a noob as well, just put an Origami Cricket 7 in my shopping cart when I came upon this thread. I had sent a message to @Pinigis and haven't heard back - maybe finding this thread was a blessing in disguise! BTW, since when is $62 or even $6.20 NOT a lot of money? Who are those people that claim that $62 is not a lot of money qualified to say such a thing?

cplager

(I had to read your sentence twice to parse it.)

Did you try and contact him through his website or here?

Most people I know of (including myself) are happy Origami customers.

ShermCraig

Charles,

Apologies for the difficulty you had in reading my sentence. I decided to go ahead and take the plunge and purchase the bike. Hopefully, it will arrive rust-free.

Pinigis 

ShermCraig, I am not sure where you sent your message, but feel free to email me at Paul@origamibicycles.com

keyven

Honestly, I'm not sure why people are expecting the same level of service for $300 Origamis as $2,000 BFs and Bromptons. Sure that would be nice, but it's not a feasible arrangement when their profit margin is pretty small compared to the boutique bike manufacturers. The reasonable middle ground is to pay for the return cost, and ship free a new pair of bikes that has been thoroughly checked for flaws.

Just like how one should expect luxury speakers manufacturer Bang & Olufsen to provide great service for a US$5,000 setup, but shouldn't expect the same from Logitech for a similar screw-up with US$200 speakers. If everyone had to do that, there would be no low-end market, just expensive low-end products with decent after-sales service.

The key idea is variety - many people here display a distinctively selfish middle-class mentality. They want the market to revolve around them and them only. No cheap and low-quality options for the unfussy lower class please, just Bromptons and BFs only. And Origamis and Dahons must suffer the same expectations despite being a fraction of the price.

How do low-end manufacturers survive if any time a bike is less-than-perfect, they have to offer a full refund, pay for shipping and packaging both ways, while apologizing profusely? The expectation is ridiculous and silly. Mistakes happen even to high-end businesses too, except in most cases they have the resources to fix it or lawyers to fight it.

Origami probably exists to serve the lower-end customers who don't expect the world, and is willing to pay accordingly less. Unfortunately, in this thread we have an example of someone who expected Brompton-like service at a tiny fraction of the price. I would expect the high end bike manufacturers to accede to her request, but not Citizen and Origami.

ShermCraig

Wow, quite the elitist rant. Forgive me as I am new around here, but I don't think anyone here was expecting a Maserati for a Hyundai price (apologies to Hyundai owners). Let me preface this by saying I did go ahead and make the purchase of the Origami last night and am very much looking forward to receiving it. That said, I don't care whether you are spending $300 or $3000 on a product. Service is service and to imply that if you cannot afford the expensive item, you somehow should expect to be treated differently is offensive. You state it isn't feasible to expect a high level of service for a lower tiered item - I say good luck with that outlook. Sounds like you are either a naive person or very young. Service is service, no matter what the cost of the item in question. Your implication that if you buy a product that is less expensive and arrives broken, you should just accept that? That's absurd.

Peace.

keyven

Elitist rant? You must be a young kid whose parents has closeted you from the ways of the world.

Globally, there are many perfectly good and reasonable merchants who do not subscribe to the "satisfaction guaranteed or money back, no questions asked" mentality. If Origami has a poor business model, they will certainly close in due time.

Their "no payment for return shipping" very likely has something to do with keeping prices down, with it marked in the contract BEFORE she signed it. As usual, there's the usual claims of ignorance (though I can't blame her - who actually reads these contracts?), and insisting they reimburse her or she will publicly demonise them.

ShermCraig

So, by this logic, the old adage (to which I have always subscribed and it has served me well) "the customer is always right" doesn't apply in your world? I guess we can agree to disagree then. I'll always work with merchants that stand behind their products 150%. Most do - and it appears to me that Origami is among them. The great thing about capitalism is that you are free to give your money to the "perfectly good and reasonable merchants" that stand behind their products at something less than 100%.

Peace.

Oh, BTW. I am a kid - I'm 50.

Pinigis 

[/QUOTE]

Elitist rant? You must be a young kid whose parents has closeted you from the ways of the world.

Globally, there are many perfectly good and reasonable merchants who do not subscribe to the "satisfaction guaranteed or money back, no questions asked" mentality. If Origami has a poor business model, they will certainly close in due time.

Their "no payment for return shipping" very likely has something to do with keeping prices down, with it marked in the contract BEFORE she signed it. As usual, there's the usual claims of ignorance (though I can't blame her - who actually reads these contracts?), and insisting they reimburse her or she will publicly demonise them.[/QUOTE]

I will put or customer service up against anyone. Origami is a small company, and it is both our product and service that keep us alive. This thread emitted from an unusual incident that was resolved a long time ago. If you check our website you will see that we offer to pay return shipping if you find that you wish to return a bike for any reason within two weeks of receipt.

We understand that buying a bike online is a risk, so we offer a two week test ride to make sure it meets your needs; this is better than most local bike shops will offer.

I hate the title of this thread, but I love the free exchange of information that the forum permits.

tds101 

I'm considering a future origami bike purchase,... I'm not worried about it in the least.

Sangetsu

Having been in business myself for some time, I have found the old saying "you get what you pay for" to be proven true countless times. If the retail cost of something you buy nowadays is $300, the manufactured cost of the item, including materials and labor, would be $40 to $50. Needless to say, for that price, the materials and labor will hardly be top-notch. More than once, I have purchased goods made in China or other low labor cost countries, and found products to be defective out-of-the-box.


Most of that $300 sticker price is divided four ways, between the manufacturer, the shipper, the distributor, and the retailer. While I expect good service from any retailer or distributor I deal with, the amount of service is usually commensurate with the price of the item. I don't expect to be served champagne if I am flying economy class.

"Caveot emptor" are words to live by when making a purchase, and this of course also applies to sellers who hope to provide quality goods to their customers.

keyven

Well I suspected you are an American, used to "American" quality service

There are plenty of ways to make up for their mistake without having to resort to money. In most parts of the world, monetary refund is not the standard practice - and there are many great businesses besides American ones.

I know if you tried this in many parts of Asia, you'd be laughed off the phone (or email). It's not that Asia doesn't have quality service, it's just that there are many other possibilities exist that will be a win-win for all involved besides straight up refunding the money.

Rest assured a smart business will strive to make it up with extras that exceed the value of the loss - an unhappy customer will complain to everyone around them and only stain their name. This is exactly what TC did - public blackmail to pressure them to return every cent despite the contract stating otherwise.

ShermCraig

For once, I am happy I am not as well traveled as some!

On another note, I received my Origami Cricket on Monday, and I am very pleased. I needed to adjust a few items that seemed difficult to me at first (I've never adjusted anything on a bicycle in my life), but with the help of Pinigis, I have become an expert!! I have only praise for the support I've received thus far which is very important to me as I have alluded to! Knowing that I can pick up my phone in a bind, or get a prompt response to an email inquiry is very comforting, so although its only been a few days, I give very high marks!!

jobtraklite

The owner seems to have resolved the issue; but I think the reason the thread went off the rails was all the fan boy posts, starting with the very first response.

We all know quality control and customer satisfaction is a statistical game. It's one thing to provide another data point by stating a positive experience, if you had one. But questioning the OP's integrity with "rust happens" could only lead to a downward spiral.