aclinjury

you can continue to workout through muscle soreness.
However, if it's muscle pain then you should stop.
Sometimes it can be conflating distinguishing muscle soreness with muscle pain, especially if you're motivated to workout and ignore symptoms of pain.

Maelochs

The damage I am talking about happens in the first few minutes---which is why you will see pros jump on a trainer and spin like mad right after a really hard stage. The lactic acid which stays in the clogged capillaries when the blood pressure lowers, is .... Acidic .... and poisons the capillary cells and any surrounding cells, which then rupture and release fluid. The newly killed cells' membranes add to the traffic in the remaining capillaries, and the fluid, which cannot escape through the clogged capillaries, add to the inflammation.

Maybe you could ask the pros why they think it is so important to do five or fifteen fast minutes on a trainer right after a hard stage .... maybe it has nothing about flushing all the waste out of the muscles and ensuring a good supply of nutrients to initiate recovery ... that's just what some well-educated racer and pro trainer told me. he could have been wrong. But it is the best information I have ... and sort of obviates nay issues about how long it takes the liver to clean the blood. The point isn't to get the lactic acid out of the blood .... the point is to reduce the concentration of lactic acid at the most damaged parts of the muscles.

Ummm ..... okay ......

"Flushing" has nothing to do with hydration. The idea is to flush the muscles with fresh blood, not to replace lost fluids. Otherwise, we wouldn't do recovery rides, we'd do recovery drinking sessions .... (which a lot of amateur riders do, but usually not with water .... )

Anyway .... just to clarify my point. Whatever the science is, it is always the last, best guess, as more research will always turn up new information eventually.

Bholz

Just need to ride it out. Just like lifting when your muscles are sore. You need to give ample time for recovery, however, you need to just push through the soreness.

livedarklions

Yes, and all of the new information I'm aware of says this view of lactic acid is incorrect, that it has next to nothing to do with DOMS, and is actually a fuel used by the muscles.

Knock yourself out with making head or tail of this mixed bag, but there's no evidence that cool-downs do anything to prevent damage to muscle tissue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5999142/

Beg to differ on the "flushing". If you're familiar with rhabdo, you will know that the load on the kidneys is heightened by processing protein breakdown byproducts. Unlike lactate, which really breaks down very quickly, these byproducts do cumulate, possibly to dangerous levels. I had some annoying symptoms that I don't care to describe here until I took up this drink a lot of water strategy. I'll just say the phrase "felt like needles" was a part of my vocabulary for a few weeks. Suffice it to say that diluting my urine post long ride has made life a bit less uncomfortable for me. I have no idea whether this has impact on post workout muscle pain. Probably not, but it is a part of my post big workout routine.

All due respect to pros, but they may be experts in what works for them and not in why it works. And maybe neither. They just might be doing something out of faith that it works.

PeteHski

From "BritishCycling.org" advice for a hard training session or race:-

"A progressive cool-down will help remove metabolic waste products from your muscles. If you don’t cool-down, these metabolites will ‘sit’ there and potentially inhibit recovery. A cool-down will also minimise the likelihood of you feeling dizzy, nauseous or fainting post exercise. It will also allow your blood to redistribute around the body, preventing blood pooled in your lower extremities."

Can't say I understand what "metabolites" are, but all the professional training programs I've followed in recent years talk the same language. Sometimes you just have to trust other people's day jobs. When you see pro cyclists at World Tour level cooling down on turbo trainers after a 200 km stage you know they aren't doing it just for the hell of it. Every structured workout I've done has a defined cool down period at the end. Usually 5-10 mins of relatively high cadence spinning to get rid of those pesky metabolites!

Maelochs

"Metabolites:" are the chemicals created by metabolism .... what the stuff breaks down into.

What's left, chemically, after your muscles burn fuel (combine sugar with oxygen) to create energy .... i.e. waste, including lactic acid.

(https://healthjade.com/how-your-body-metabolizes-sugar/)

livedarklions

Check out the link in the post you were replying to. Basically a survey of the scientific literature that pretty much debunks most of the claims you just quoted.

And no, I don't trust other people's day jobs. Trainers are well-known to claim certainty of their methods when none exists. It's basically part of the job description because the one thing any program will definitely need is the active, somewhat enthusiastic participation by the trainee. If the trainer seems at all hesitant about the effectiveness of any part of the program, there's the very real possibility of losing the faith of their audience.

So I think the pro cyclists are doing it it because their trainers say it's good, they've grown accustomed to it, and we'll probably never know whether they would be better off or worse off or none of the above if they hadn't done it.

I put cool-down cycles in the same category as I do warm-up stretching, something I did because I was told I had to, and when I stopped, nothing bad happened. Unlike stretching, the cool down doesn't hurt, but I still don't see the logic in it. Strikes me that I'm getting whatever effect I'm supposed to if I just walk around for a few minutes at the end of the workout.

BTW, did you notice how vague and probabilistic those claims actually are--what metabolites? Sit where? What the hell does "potentially inhibit recovery" mean? It minimizes the likelihood of a bunch of stuff that rarely happens? Who faints after a workout? And the best way to prevent the pooling of blood in your extremities is to lay down with your legs elevated, but if that's happening to the extent that it's noticeable, you better get checked for heart failure because that's a pretty ominous symptom.

Maelochs

By the way, I am Not against drinking a lot of fluids after exercise, for exactly the reasons livedarklions suggests. However, terms can become confused if not rigidly defined. I was speaking of flushing muscles with blood (the "cool-down" ride or trainer time) as opposed to flushing the body with water. I was not senselessly quibbling, just making sure everyone was on the same age terminologically.

Maelochs

Sometimes Livedarklions is filled with insightful insights.

livedarklions

And the literature survey I linked to says there's absolutely no proof that cool-downs reduce lactate in the muscles. It might reduce it in the bloodstream slightly, but that's not really an issue unless your liver is on the blink.

PeteHski

Yeah I gave it a very brief look over. Will go back to it when I have more time. I know what you are saying, but whenever an article "debunks" not just one other professional view, but pretty much ALL other professional views, then you have to wonder who is right or wrong? I do agree that some training methods are dubious by scientific standards and I don't personally place a huge emphasis on the potential benefits of a cool-down. But I have noticed that if I stop dead at the end of a very hard training session it feels absolutely horrific! The sudden change is just too much of a shock. However at the end of a lower intensity ride it doesn't much matter.

livedarklions

Well, I'm not whipping myself with chains like you do on your training sessions, so I can't really say how I'd react to a complete abrupt cessation.

I still can't get past Sufferfest.

zandoval 

I have done allot of research on this and surprisingly the mechanism of action contradicts it helping. But the proof is in the pudding. I do it allot, and so do many others. It also helps with resting cramps. I am talking about those charlie horse type intractable cramps you can get in the large muscles of your legs when sleeping. Surprisingly even light compression helps, but who knows exactly why?

Also age has allot to do with it. It's just about recovery time I guess...

coffeesnob

tablespoon of mustard cures my charlies

wolfchild

Zwift is not real cycling...I live up in Canada and you're not going to find me performing fake rides on some computer screen. I prefer to ride outdoors all winter long.

zandoval 

Makes since. Mustard is high in metabolic Magnesium. And its not really the amount of Magnesium but rather the fact it is already in metabolic form and readily absorbed. Magnesium helps with those Calcium and Potassium channels in muscular tissue contraction.

billridesbikes

You do you….

I’ll be comfy doing fake riding and fake racing all winter long inside rather have my nostrils frozen solid with snot or be covered with dirty road slush from passing trucks. Thank you very much.

Flip Flop Rider

riding is riding

out or in

ofajen

Technically, yes, it’s a different system. You are not doing work to move your body and the bike forward against external forces. You are dissipating your effort in the machine in some fashion and no work is done on you or the bike.

I have the same preference, but that’s all it is. I’d rather ride outdoors. On the few occasions where that won’t work out, I’d rather use my elliptical, which is kinda like riding out of the saddle all the time, or some other indoor workout where I’m not on a stationary bike.

But it’s clear that Zwift can keep lots of people engaged and in good cycling shape through the winter, and that’s gotta be a good thing.

Otto

PeteHski

Fake rides, real fitness.

GhostRider62

the pros are on the trainer and hydrating to boost plasma levels to pass the Hct test

i rarely get doms but i also rarely do the type of workout that causes it and i don't think doms has anything to do with lactate or H+....

ofajen

That’s clever. You should suggest that to Zwift!

Otto

livedarklions

For the zillionth time, there is no reason to believe that electrolytes have anything to do with workout-related cramping. It's been studied, and there appears to be no relationship whatsoever. You can get cramping from extreme electrolyte deprivation, but it's very rare and likely going to be systemic, not a single muscle charley horse kind of thing.

I've seen some discussion of how mustard is supposed to work, and it has to do with nervous system interactions, not anything to do with magnesium.

zandoval 

I certainly agree. Maybe its just our way of quantifying what is electrolyte deprivation. If we draw blood and check electrolytes it will be rare that we find anything abnormal at all. I personally tested electrolyte levels in runners after a US Army marathon in the 80's. They were obviously dehydrated, exhausted, and completely run down yet none technically had low electrolyte levels. Half of them had blood in their urine with limited urine output. In other words ya gotta be really messed up to have a laboratory confirmed electrolyte disorder.

We certainly need more research on cramps resting type or otherwise. Thank goodness the majority of people never have this problem chronically...

livedarklions

That's the big problem with trying to nail down causation, they really can't observe them as they spontaneously occur because they're too infrequent to catch under laboratory conditions.

I had a foot cramp a couple weeks ago. I didn't even know that was a thing. Lasted about 10 seconds and went away as soon as I put weight on it. Never before, none since, really weird.