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Range extending batteries - for e-road bike

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Range extending batteries - for e-road bike

Old 08-22-23, 11:32 AM
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Wildwood 
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Range extending batteries - for e-road bike

Been riding an Orbea Gain 2020 edition (with X35 rear hub motor) for close to a year now - like it a lot. Battery is still good, but for longer rides in the mountains on forest service gravel roads I would like the insurance of more range. These 'range extending' batteries fit in a second bottle cage and should effectively double the distance.

But at $650 usd the price seems high.
Simple question = do you see these types of batteries getting less expensive? Maybe at the end of the cycling season?.

Any battery suppliers out there besides OEM Mahle that offer a quality battery for the X35 motor?

Thanks - maybe I just bite-th-bullet for $650.
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Old 08-22-23, 11:45 AM
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I don't have any answers for you other than to say I'd be very hesitant to buy a battery not specifically designated by the MFG. Lot's of horror stories out there about some of those batteries coming out of China, some even starting fires.
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Old 08-22-23, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jklotz
I don't have any answers for you other than to say I'd be very hesitant to buy a battery not specifically designated by the MFG. Lot's of horror stories out there about some of those batteries coming out of China, some even starting fires.
Understood. . and thanks.
But checking the broader knowledge from this group before plunking down $650+ for an extra bit of miles.
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Old 08-22-23, 12:09 PM
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I ride a Pivot with the Fazua system and batteries are about the same price that is IF you can find one. I don’t see the price dropping anytime soon if ever.
Now with Specialized, their extender batteries are easy to find and commonly go on sale for $350-ish. I also have a Levo MTB so happy to see at least one of my bikes can do long distance without spending large $$$
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Old 08-22-23, 12:31 PM
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Orbea probably has proprietary connections from controller to battery and/or battery to frame. As such, no competition, so unlikely to drop price. As above, I would happily pay a little extra for the security of procuring from a major OEM. Being frugal, while admirable, isn't always the best idea.

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Old 08-22-23, 03:35 PM
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Anyone with experience regarding

www.volabike.com

Spanish. As is Orbea.

???
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Old 08-23-23, 10:17 AM
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Similar, the TQ extender for my bike is $600 and not easy to find in the States. Fortunately Trek uses the same system and lists it as "only available in-store."

It's just 160WH so about half the capacity of the stock battery. I will be surprised if anybody offers an aftermarket version because the two batteries are integrated and require the OEM charger. IOW low demand and tricky to reverse-engineer.
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Old 08-26-23, 06:37 PM
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Well,....lacking any negative input on Volabike.....
I will be a first reviewer ....
so to speak... on this forum.
One first valid point of reference is useful.

I wanted a larger battery for more miles than the Orbea/Mahle 250Wh.
Vola offers 378Wh in a similar bottle cage holder, taller and heavier - luckily the frame is XL with plenty of room.

Given final price of each (incl ship, currency conversion, taxes, etc) = 50% more battery life for $135usd less. Unless customs requires a fee on a quantity one consumable bicycle part. Hopefully, unlikely. Butt,.... you never know.

Customer service rating: My questions were answered by email within a day. Prior to sale. So far so good. Guaranteed 100% compatible with Orbea/Mahle X35+ system.
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Old 08-27-23, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
Simple question = do you see these types of batteries getting less expensive?
No.
Everything is going battery electric and an order of magnitude increase (at least) of global battery production is still needed to satisfy production requirements.
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Old 08-29-23, 09:42 AM
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It boggles my mind that batteries are brand specific. What possible reason is there for this? Even on bikes where a battery is installed in some body cavity and needs to be a specific shape, there is no reason one shouldn't be able to remove the stock battery and plug an external battery in with a two-wire connector.

Maybe we should quit patronizing manufactures with proprietary battery designs.
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Old 08-29-23, 10:04 AM
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Not to argue, but AFAIK all commercial e-bikes have proprietary systems unless some are interchangeable by accident. Even my granddaughters Kent Torpedo is proprietary (and I'm not sure that spare batteries are available now they seem to have discontinued the bike. Fortunately she's outgrown it). DIY = interchangeability (to an extent).
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Old 08-29-23, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 2old
Not to argue, but AFAIK all commercial e-bikes have proprietary systems unless some are interchangeable by accident. Even my granddaughters Kent Torpedo is proprietary (and I'm not sure that spare batteries are available now they seem to have discontinued the bike. Fortunately she's outgrown it). DIY = interchangeability (to an extent).
I'm just trying to understand. Why are they proprietary? Is it just an Apple thing to force people to buy their products or is there some technical reason why their controllers can't work with any other battery?
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Old 08-29-23, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
I'm just trying to understand. Why are they proprietary? Is it just an Apple thing to force people to buy their products or is there some technical reason why their controllers can't work with any other battery?
I agree and could speculate, but the bottom line is they're not standardized and won't be unless a group of manufacturers decide to standardize (I'm not sure they'll do this because their systems will be more accessible and some will lose sales). AFAICT electric car companies have the same characteristics. Individuals who purchased bikes from some of these "here now, gone tomorrow" companies are in for a rude awakening when their batteries (or other components) need to be replaced. I would have been with my Haibike except it had the same on/off, PAS switch as a Giant..
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Old 08-29-23, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 2old
Not to argue, but AFAIK all commercial e-bikes have proprietary systems unless some are interchangeable by accident. Even my granddaughters Kent Torpedo is proprietary (and I'm not sure that spare batteries are available now they seem to have discontinued the bike. Fortunately she's outgrown it). DIY = interchangeability (to an extent).
I presume they're fairly complex WRT protective circuitry, integration with controls and the charger, etc. There are a lot of regulations to meet, and myriad regulators with different requirements.

I know from photography that Li-ion batteries were once easy to clone and today are a lot harder for 3rd party makers to replicate. Bike batteries are much larger, quite variable in size and shape, and made in far lower quantities than camera cells. This one dwells in my downtube.

TQ 360 Wh battery
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Old 08-29-23, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
I'm just trying to understand. Why are they proprietary? Is it just an Apple thing to force people to buy their products or is there some technical reason why their controllers can't work with any other battery?
its more then that on higher end brands. the battery BMS communicates to the bike or charger. its a very good safety thing. when my battery is charged the charger turns off. The bike can run two batteries and it can switch between batteries keeping them in balance.
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Old 08-30-23, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
its more then that on higher end brands. the battery BMS communicates to the bike or charger. its a very good safety thing. when my battery is charged the charger turns off. The bike can run two batteries and it can switch between batteries keeping them in balance.
Good info.

Having the bike controller manage the battery makes them a matched set. But that would also mean replacing the battery with something with a different capacity requires a firmware update on the bike controller. Seems like putting the smarts directly into the charger, or better yet the battery itself, would be the better approach.

Still not seeing the details of the safety aspect.

Selecting between two batteries doesn't require communicating with the battery. Just pick the one with the higher voltage, or more likely run on one until it gets low than switch to the other.

My worry is they are sharing some sort of product code and simply turning off for no good reason, just like Apple products do.

Maybe I'll spend some time on endless sphere and see if I can dig up any details.
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Old 08-30-23, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 2old
Not to argue, but AFAIK all commercial e-bikes have proprietary systems unless some are interchangeable by accident. Even my granddaughters Kent Torpedo is proprietary (and I'm not sure that spare batteries are available now they seem to have discontinued the bike. Fortunately she's outgrown it). DIY = interchangeability (to an extent).
That's something that should be addressed. A group of manufacturers should agree upon standards that help the industry move forward and simplify things for riders.

In the electric scooter world, Gogoro has an electric urban scooter that has swappable batteries and battery swapping stations



Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, and Ineos have launched a competing standard called Gachaco.

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Old 08-30-23, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Good info.

Having the bike controller manage the battery makes them a matched set. But that would also mean replacing the battery with something with a different capacity requires a firmware update on the bike controller. Seems like putting the smarts directly into the charger, or better yet the battery itself, would be the better approach.

Still not seeing the details of the safety aspect.

Selecting between two batteries doesn't require communicating with the battery. Just pick the one with the higher voltage, or more likely run on one until it gets low than switch to the other.

My worry is they are sharing some sort of product code and simply turning off for no good reason, just like Apple products do.

Maybe I'll spend some time on endless sphere and see if I can dig up any details.
on the bosch system you can use any capacity battery that fits the bike. like their external it could be 300 watts 400 500 watts they all work fine. if you leave a battery plugged in on a bosch setup the charger turns off so it is not trickle charging the battery. thats part of the UL listing they have.
Having the ability to run two batteries keeps you from hauling extra batteries in a bag. our tandem and my trek bike both hole two batteries. the trek has two different batteries the 650 watt internal and a 300 to 500 watt external. then system sips from each battery keeping them at 5% of each other. if I start with a fully charged battery and a 1/2 charged it will use the 100% till they are balanced. bosch still supports for the most part is 10 year old stuff. the batteries still fit and you can still buy them.
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Old 08-30-23, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
on the bosch system you can use any capacity battery that fits the bike. like their external it could be 300 watts 400 500 watts they all work fine. if you leave a battery plugged in on a bosch setup the charger turns off so it is not trickle charging the battery. thats part of the UL listing they have.
Having the ability to run two batteries keeps you from hauling extra batteries in a bag. our tandem and my trek bike both hole two batteries. the trek has two different batteries the 650 watt internal and a 300 to 500 watt external. then system sips from each battery keeping them at 5% of each other. if I start with a fully charged battery and a 1/2 charged it will use the 100% till they are balanced. bosch still supports for the most part is 10 year old stuff. the batteries still fit and you can still buy them.
Thanks for the response, I learned a few things.

Can you use a non-Bosch built battery?
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Old 08-30-23, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Thanks for the response, I learned a few things.

Can you use a non-Bosch built battery?
no but thats a good thing since getting a battery that is safe and Certified from a 3rd party would make things less reliable. I wish bosch did not charge as much as they do on their batteries but they also have a rep of the longest lasting batteries and that you can still buy batteries for any of their bikes. bosch would have to sell their BMS to get batteries work from other companies.
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Old 08-30-23, 12:07 PM
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External battery arrived from Volabike. Very fast delivery from Spain.
Packed well. Good instructions for installation and use.
All the accessories included.


Regarding compatibility - since the Mahle (formerly ebikemotion) X35 rear hub system has been adopted by several larger bike manufacturers, I am reasonably confident Orbea have not added a layer of complexity with proprietary software. Volabike guarantees compatibility, I accept that. Weight = just over 4lbs, 1.8kg
edit: I need to provide a plug adapter EU -> USA. $7 for 2 @ Amazon. Will let Vola know of US needs.


So far, all good. Will be riding with it today.
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Old 08-30-23, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
no but thats a good thing since getting a battery that is safe and Certified from a 3rd party would make things less reliable. I wish bosch did not charge as much as they do on their batteries but they also have a rep of the longest lasting batteries and that you can still buy batteries for any of their bikes. bosch would have to sell their BMS to get batteries work from other companies.
Not fully following your logic. The BMS should really have nothing to do with paralleling two batteries. From what I can tell a BMS balances the cells internally and provides overall protection for the battery. My guess Bosch is using the same Panasonic or Samsung cells everyone else is using.

Well maybe some enterprising individual can hack their firmware and get around the limitation.

Again thanks for you input.
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Old 08-30-23, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Not fully following your logic. The BMS should really have nothing to do with paralleling two batteries. From what I can tell a BMS balances the cells internally and provides overall protection for the battery. My guess Bosch is using the same Panasonic or Samsung cells everyone else is using.

Well maybe some enterprising individual can hack their firmware and get around the limitation.

Again thanks for you input.
its more of a computer it gets updates and does a lot of communication with the motor. two batteries are connected with a y cable so they work with the motor to turn on and off keeping the two balanced. till the BMS gets the signal the battery does not not even power on. So you cant put a volt meter to the wires to see what voltage it is. and Safety feature. the BMS also keeps track of the cycles and battery health and if it was charged too cold or too hot.
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Old 08-30-23, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
its more of a computer it gets updates and does a lot of communication with the motor. two batteries are connected with a y cable so they work with the motor to turn on and off keeping the two balanced. till the BMS gets the signal the battery does not not even power on. So you cant put a volt meter to the wires to see what voltage it is. and Safety feature. the BMS also keeps track of the cycles and battery health and if it was charged too cold or too hot.
I'm honestly not trying to be difficult but recognize I do come across that way.

What you are saying is there is essentially a switch in each battery and their outputs are paralleled in the Y cable. That must mean additional wires in the Y cable to sense the voltage of each battery and communicate with the switches in the BMS's.

My point is the switch(es) could be in the controller and each battery connected independently. That way any battery could be connected since there is nothing but a power connection. Everything will still work as before, except the battery terminals will always be live. At these voltages this isn't really a safety issue.
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Old 09-06-23, 08:43 PM
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On th road again…

Here is a pic of first ride with 378Wh ‘range extending’ bottle cage battery.
First the bike


It took me up a couple of roads I always pass on the regular bikes. That’s good.

Seattle skyline far left, Bellevue skyline on right. And if you have a big screen, direct center of Lake Washington a few buildings = UW District, university and more. Miscellaneous back street in Issaquah.


And the battery from Vola seems to work fine. Not a long enough ride to determine range, but 4 tough climbs, where I geared down for a full assist pull. 27 mile ride used about 25% of battery power with highest assist level throughout. A tough 100 mi ride with sections of full assist for many miles may be possible.


I can only wonder the boost when regenerative charging - long downhill sections - becomes affordably available.
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