Suntour versus Campy
#52
Who cares, just ride it!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 989
Bikes: 1992ish Davidson Impulse, 1981 Apollo Gran Sport SS, 2006 Salsa Las Cruces, 2010 Soma Double Cross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
Why Campy stubbornly held onto their anachronisms for so long is beyond me.
Last edited by Antipodes; 08-22-08 at 12:53 PM.
#53
messenger
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: WLA
Posts: 599
Bikes: pinarellos and a colnago
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
sheeesh
blah, blah, blah--- campi is the best!!!!!!!!-- don't wake me--- Im dreaming NOt of the suntour equiped
colnago--- swheeesh
colnago--- swheeesh
#54
señor miembro
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,626
Bikes: '70s - '80s Campagnolo
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3888 Post(s)
Liked 6,485 Times
in
3,209 Posts
No contest.
.
.
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,671
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super,Lemond Maillot Juane.& custom,PDG Paramount,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,
Mentioned: 156 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2323 Post(s)
Liked 4,988 Times
in
1,776 Posts
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, Va
Posts: 9,579
Bikes: '65 Frejus TDF, '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster, Tern Link D8
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1608 Post(s)
Liked 2,216 Times
in
1,103 Posts
Having lived through the last 60+ years, I can remember the negative association with Japanese products as a child.
What I didn't know was the impact of Juran and Deming on the Japanese manufacturing industry. Custom hand built Japanese quality has been around for a long time, centuries. Deming taught them how to implement quality into their manufacturing process.
What is not common knowledge is that it was Ford that rejected Demings offer to improve quality. He went to where someone would listen, hence the Toyota reputation for quality.
I am sure the quality mindset spread throughout the industrial domain in Japan, including the bicycle industry.
I am a supporter of both Suntour Superbe Pro and the Campagnolo products. More bikes with the later then the former. The Superbe Pro group is going on the Trek 760, which I think is a good pairing for both, which are often not seen as significant as the De Rosa and Campagnolo.
I number of comments are right on along with some that are a result of limited experience. As for me I fall more into the limited experience crowd, but I know what I have and its limitations including bad configurations that don't work well with an understanding why. One of the benefits of being blessed with slightly above average mechanical aptitude enhanced with education and practical first-hand experience. Oh and being very humble.
What I didn't know was the impact of Juran and Deming on the Japanese manufacturing industry. Custom hand built Japanese quality has been around for a long time, centuries. Deming taught them how to implement quality into their manufacturing process.
What is not common knowledge is that it was Ford that rejected Demings offer to improve quality. He went to where someone would listen, hence the Toyota reputation for quality.
I am sure the quality mindset spread throughout the industrial domain in Japan, including the bicycle industry.
I am a supporter of both Suntour Superbe Pro and the Campagnolo products. More bikes with the later then the former. The Superbe Pro group is going on the Trek 760, which I think is a good pairing for both, which are often not seen as significant as the De Rosa and Campagnolo.
I number of comments are right on along with some that are a result of limited experience. As for me I fall more into the limited experience crowd, but I know what I have and its limitations including bad configurations that don't work well with an understanding why. One of the benefits of being blessed with slightly above average mechanical aptitude enhanced with education and practical first-hand experience. Oh and being very humble.
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Likes For SJX426:
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,299
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1143 Post(s)
Liked 1,740 Times
in
961 Posts
Getting down to the dirt. I have a blender of Suntour with Campy hubs for the 716. The late Suntour MTB is great stuff to use for touring. Here I am getting down and dirty with the Trek on a moderate MTB downhill run.
I admit my downhill run, I caught air a few times and had to dismount for the biggest ramps. With the skinny tires it was difficult to stay on course. Lol Campasuntolo...
I admit my downhill run, I caught air a few times and had to dismount for the biggest ramps. With the skinny tires it was difficult to stay on course. Lol Campasuntolo...
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 1,834
Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400T, 1977 Trek TX900, 1982 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1991 Waterford PDG OS Paramount, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 604 Post(s)
Liked 1,064 Times
in
535 Posts
Was gonna also heap on the old Campy derailleurs, but after swapping out the Regina freewheel and chain for newer Shimano one, and modern chain, the old Campy NR shifts quite nicely. Dare I say as well as my Cyclone II? Way better looking regardless.
Tim
Tim
Last edited by tkamd73; 09-19-22 at 10:43 AM.
Likes For tkamd73:
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked 566 Times
in
197 Posts
The SunTour rear derailleurs shifted very well….or maybe I should state that they were more refined in their shifting. For front shifting, the advantage was to Campagnolo. The differences were much smaller when dealing with racing ratios. A Campagnolo Super Record rear would just dance across a straight block or even something like a 13-21. The differences were more noticeable with something like a 13-26. One difference between the two-and it is an important one in racing- was the ease of a rear wheel change in the event of a flat, etc. The SunTour rear derailleurs had so much chain wrap that they were a PITA in a quick wheel change situation. Forget about a smooth shift, that is the sort of thing that may prevent you from rejoining the peloton. Of course, nobody is racing any of this stuff today, but in its day that was a major distinction. Another hit on the SunTour was that they seemed to be made of very soft metal….I think that has played a major part as to why some SunTour models are rather rare today compared to their original numbers.
Likes For El Chaba:
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,671
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super,Lemond Maillot Juane.& custom,PDG Paramount,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,
Mentioned: 156 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2323 Post(s)
Liked 4,988 Times
in
1,776 Posts
The SunTour rear derailleurs shifted very well….or maybe I should state that they were more refined in their shifting. For front shifting, the advantage was to Campagnolo. The differences were much smaller when dealing with racing ratios. A Campagnolo Super Record rear would just dance across a straight block or even something like a 13-21. The differences were more noticeable with something like a 13-26. One difference between the two-and it is an important one in racing- was the ease of a rear wheel change in the event of a flat, etc. The SunTour rear derailleurs had so much chain wrap that they were a PITA in a quick wheel change situation. Forget about a smooth shift, that is the sort of thing that may prevent you from rejoining the peloton. Of course, nobody is racing any of this stuff today, but in its day that was a major distinction. Another hit on the SunTour was that they seemed to be made of very soft metal….I think that has played a major part as to why some SunTour models are rather rare today compared to their original numbers.
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
#61
The Wheezing Geezer
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Española, NM
Posts: 1,055
Bikes: 1976 Fredo Speciale, Jamis Citizen 1, Ellis-Briggs FAVORI, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr.
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 414 Post(s)
Liked 915 Times
in
447 Posts
In 1976, my Paramount had been stolen, and I built up the new racing frame I'd made with maximum frugality. If a part was both lighter than Campy, and cheaper than Campy, I chose it instead of Campy. Some replacements worked great, including the then-new Suntour Cyclone derailleurs, which I still have. Others, like the Avocet seatpost, were OK, but nothing special. It took me a long time to appreciate how bad my Galli Ti brakes really were. Nice drillium levers, but very ineffective stoppers.
If anyone's Campagnolo Nuovo Record derailleur ever shifted sloppily, it was worn out or adjusted wrong. It happens.
If anyone's Campagnolo Nuovo Record derailleur ever shifted sloppily, it was worn out or adjusted wrong. It happens.
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North, Ga.
Posts: 2,401
Bikes: 3Rensho-Aerodynamics, Bernard Hinault Look - 1986 tour winner, Guerciotti, Various Klein's & Panasonic's
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked 375 Times
in
162 Posts
70s & early 80s Campy was designed for ruggedness and reliably over anything else.
It was built in a time where bike shops were not always available and mail ordering parts took months. Serious riders and racers could not be delayed or stranded waiting on a fix for a part that failed.
Campy had a reputation for doing this job very well. Others did not. Was this reputation deserved? I think so. Where components by Suntour and Shimano not as durable? Maybe not. Maybe so. It was a perceived risk real or not. As we crept into the 80s equipment was easier to come by so the extreme reliability factor slowly became overshadowed by outright performance.
I think that is why the very top of the sport was much slower to adopt to Asian designs. Euro pros had much more to lose & the gamble was to big.
It was built in a time where bike shops were not always available and mail ordering parts took months. Serious riders and racers could not be delayed or stranded waiting on a fix for a part that failed.
Campy had a reputation for doing this job very well. Others did not. Was this reputation deserved? I think so. Where components by Suntour and Shimano not as durable? Maybe not. Maybe so. It was a perceived risk real or not. As we crept into the 80s equipment was easier to come by so the extreme reliability factor slowly became overshadowed by outright performance.
I think that is why the very top of the sport was much slower to adopt to Asian designs. Euro pros had much more to lose & the gamble was to big.
Likes For embankmentlb:
#63
Full Member
I was into bicycling in the late 80s, but then school and life got in the way... so on a visit back to my LBS back home where incidentally I'd bought a leftover Moser in '89, with sew-ups and a Triomphe groupset... I asked one of the sales guys, I've been out of bikes for a bit, I know a lot of it is Japanese now but what about Campagnolo?
He thought for a moment, and then summed it up "Im Gegensatz zu früher -- es schaltet, und es bremst!" -- "As opposed to the old days -- it shifts and it brakes."
And that about sums it up, and matches my Triomphe experience. Campy gear was always beautiful and high quality, but Shimano absolutely trounced them in functionality, so they had to get their act together, and as far as I know, they did.
He thought for a moment, and then summed it up "Im Gegensatz zu früher -- es schaltet, und es bremst!" -- "As opposed to the old days -- it shifts and it brakes."
And that about sums it up, and matches my Triomphe experience. Campy gear was always beautiful and high quality, but Shimano absolutely trounced them in functionality, so they had to get their act together, and as far as I know, they did.
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,790
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3511 Post(s)
Liked 2,926 Times
in
1,775 Posts
Having ridden Dura Ace since 1986, I never had to wade in to this debate...All this fighting for second and third place.
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, Va
Posts: 9,579
Bikes: '65 Frejus TDF, '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster, Tern Link D8
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1608 Post(s)
Liked 2,216 Times
in
1,103 Posts
Having used 7400 on my Pinarello for over 3500 miles and then switching to Racing T for the triple, I can say there really isn't much difference in performance except the ease of rebuilding the Ergos was easy. Switched from 8 speed to 9 for the Racing T. Ran it for a while with Wheel Industry spacers on the DA 8v without a problem before 100% switch. Cone for the DS DA rear hub is unobtainium.
Can't get the Shimano A RD to shift well on the wifes bike.
Can't get the Shimano A RD to shift well on the wifes bike.
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,671
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super,Lemond Maillot Juane.& custom,PDG Paramount,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,
Mentioned: 156 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2323 Post(s)
Liked 4,988 Times
in
1,776 Posts
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
Likes For jamesdak:
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,905
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,928 Times
in
2,553 Posts
1977, I raced a '76 Fuji Pro equipped with SunTour, Sugino and Gran Compe. There was one club/team in the area sponsored by Fuji. They raced the brand new Superbe equipped Pros. Almost the entire rest of the scene was Campy. We rather enjoyed the fact that with no effort at the setup and maintenance end, we had better shifting by a lot and often gained feet to a few yards on our competitors shifting on difficult climbs. Yes, the Campy FDs were better but with a 54-42, the shifting up front with the Cyclone was so good, nobody cared.
The brakes - I had to remember that I had a lot more stopping power than everybody behind me with my Gran Compes vs their NRs and to use them lightly. (After my racing days, a friend gave me his low mileage NRs. After many years of sitting in a box, they went on a racing frame I was using as a year 'round commuter. Downhill stops in the rain were scary! The Gran Compes weren't great rain brakes but I never feared I could not stop.)
Race wheel changes were faster with the NRs. Gotta give them that. (I just saw footage from American Flyer of the Canadian actress (somebody Rae?) doing a 16 second support van door to pushing off rear wheel change!) Aside - funny that wheel changes, a fact of road racing, were much faster 40-50 years ago than now! An actress 40 years ago could humble the best mechanic now.
The brakes - I had to remember that I had a lot more stopping power than everybody behind me with my Gran Compes vs their NRs and to use them lightly. (After my racing days, a friend gave me his low mileage NRs. After many years of sitting in a box, they went on a racing frame I was using as a year 'round commuter. Downhill stops in the rain were scary! The Gran Compes weren't great rain brakes but I never feared I could not stop.)
Race wheel changes were faster with the NRs. Gotta give them that. (I just saw footage from American Flyer of the Canadian actress (somebody Rae?) doing a 16 second support van door to pushing off rear wheel change!) Aside - funny that wheel changes, a fact of road racing, were much faster 40-50 years ago than now! An actress 40 years ago could humble the best mechanic now.
Likes For 79pmooney:
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,790
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3511 Post(s)
Liked 2,926 Times
in
1,775 Posts
I think you mean Suntour had a patent for a design that they had no understanding could be used for index shifting, lost the patent, were two years behind with good indexing and never were competitive again? You mean that Suntour? Just sayin.'
Likes For smd4:
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,671
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super,Lemond Maillot Juane.& custom,PDG Paramount,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,
Mentioned: 156 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2323 Post(s)
Liked 4,988 Times
in
1,776 Posts
LOL, touché
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
Likes For jamesdak:
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
More like Fiat to a Toyota. Cool thing about that OLD Campy stuff is that it lasts forever & looks great! Things like pinch bolts & such don't strip out as easy on Campy as does the Japanese parts. The graphics are engraved in the metal. Although performance was not that good when new it never gets worse. Suntour Superbe has a relatively short life span.
Cheers
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
Cheers
#72
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
1977, I raced a '76 Fuji Pro equipped with SunTour, Sugino and Gran Compe. There was one club/team in the area sponsored by Fuji. They raced the brand new Superbe equipped Pros. Almost the entire rest of the scene was Campy. We rather enjoyed the fact that with no effort at the setup and maintenance end, we had better shifting by a lot and often gained feet to a few yards on our competitors shifting on difficult climbs. Yes, the Campy FDs were better but with a 54-42, the shifting up front with the Cyclone was so good, nobody cared.
The brakes - I had to remember that I had a lot more stopping power than everybody behind me with my Gran Compes vs their NRs and to use them lightly. (After my racing days, a friend gave me his low mileage NRs. After many years of sitting in a box, they went on a racing frame I was using as a year 'round commuter. Downhill stops in the rain were scary! The Gran Compes weren't great rain brakes but I never feared I could not stop.)
Race wheel changes were faster with the NRs. Gotta give them that. (I just saw footage from American Flyer of the Canadian actress (somebody Rae?) doing a 16 second support van door to pushing off rear wheel change!) Aside - funny that wheel changes, a fact of road racing, were much faster 40-50 years ago than now! An actress 40 years ago could humble the best mechanic now.
The brakes - I had to remember that I had a lot more stopping power than everybody behind me with my Gran Compes vs their NRs and to use them lightly. (After my racing days, a friend gave me his low mileage NRs. After many years of sitting in a box, they went on a racing frame I was using as a year 'round commuter. Downhill stops in the rain were scary! The Gran Compes weren't great rain brakes but I never feared I could not stop.)
Race wheel changes were faster with the NRs. Gotta give them that. (I just saw footage from American Flyer of the Canadian actress (somebody Rae?) doing a 16 second support van door to pushing off rear wheel change!) Aside - funny that wheel changes, a fact of road racing, were much faster 40-50 years ago than now! An actress 40 years ago could humble the best mechanic now.
Cheers
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
I agree about the collectability of campy/ european components, but I love suntour. I have a Fuji with original suntour ARX components and I love the look and feel all the parts. Also, its kind of neat that its a defunct company as long as you take care of it well. I feel like on a Bianchi, go for campy if possible. On my fuji I wouldnt want to put italian components because I feel like it would be out of place
Cheers
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
On my daily riders it's either Shimano or Suntour, but mostly Shimano. That's not by design, but more of coincidence.
That being said, on certain bikes, Campy rules. I have one full Campy fitted bike and it just oozes soul and artristy. I don't ride it very often, but it's my Shwag Wagon, without a doubt. It's my shameless indugence to embracing my inner "OCP".
The one thing I will give Campy over any other componenet is the ability to rebuild it. I have an early set of Ergo brifters that are 8 speed. I've always known I can rebuild them if needed, but I just found out I convert them to 9 sp for a mere $15 more in parts. It may even be possible to go to 10 sp, but I need some confirmation on that.
That being said, on certain bikes, Campy rules. I have one full Campy fitted bike and it just oozes soul and artristy. I don't ride it very often, but it's my Shwag Wagon, without a doubt. It's my shameless indugence to embracing my inner "OCP".
The one thing I will give Campy over any other componenet is the ability to rebuild it. I have an early set of Ergo brifters that are 8 speed. I've always known I can rebuild them if needed, but I just found out I convert them to 9 sp for a mere $15 more in parts. It may even be possible to go to 10 sp, but I need some confirmation on that.
I don't know if the older 8-speed shifters could have that done to them.
Cheers
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked 566 Times
in
197 Posts
One thing that can’t be ignored in this discussion is technique. If the rider just moves the shift lever in one direction or the other to change gears and stops moving the lever when the shift is complete, rear derailleurs like the SunTour do a better job as they complete the shift earlier in the movement. Savvy riders with derailleurs like a Camp Nuovo or Super Record learned that if you made a quick motion with the lever to overshift a bit and pull back that the derailleur would make a very clean and fast shift. You learn very quickly how much motion is needed….It is similar to cracking a whip but less exaggerated. In racing it was pretty important to master the skill. Of course some people just couldn’t get the technique down and for them there was SunTour and Shimano…..