Koyote

But you brought up costs in the opening post, and that makes sense - you can't consider one in isolation of the other. If costs were truly irrelevant, you would not have asked the question -- you would've gotten D/A.

PeteHski

With a discount I can see why you would be tempted. Unfortunately I can't imagine any discounts this year or next!

PeteHski

The cost is fixed in stone. I don't need to ask anyone how much it costs. But the benefits are not quite so obvious, hence why I'm asking about them. Once I've established all the benefits then I can obviously make up my mind if they are worth the extra cost.
Anyway, thanks to more useful posts I'm realising that D/A is not likely to be of much benefit for me.

GlennR

FYI... as to less durability of top tier.

I have Red eTap that was installed in 2016. It has almost 30,000 miles. Obviously i've replaced the chain and brake pads many times, but I just recently changed the cassette last month.All the rest is from the original 2016 groupset.

PeteHski

That's encouraging to hear. To be honest most of the durability issues I've heard about (anecdotally) with top tier components has been from crash damage or knocks (mtb) rather than normal wear and tear. A good friend of mine who ran a bike shop a decade or more ago always advised to fit Sram X9 over X0 at the time because it was just that bit more robust. I did see a snapped carbon X0 rear mech cage back then.

shelbyfv

Now that "cost no object" has been dealt with, it looks like you are in the same position as most of us, trying to decide if DA is worth the substantial premium over Ultegra. With cost as part of the equation, I've generally settled for Ultegra unless I'm buying used components. DA is obviously lighter, better finished and other than possibly titanium cogs, no evidence it is less durable. In a nutshell, it is better. IMO however, the price difference exceeds any qualitative difference. I think this may be intentional, Shimano choosing to position DA as aspirational rather than just another step up the product tier. Cost no object=DuraAce. Not a 1%er=Ultegra. Don't know if this is the same with SRAM or Campy.

PeteHski

Is D/A still limited to a 30T cassette? If so then that alone would cross it off my list for an endurance bike. Anyway I'm leaning more toward going with Sram at the moment. Probably Rival etap unless someone can convince me anything higher up the food chain is significantly better. I think you are probably right about D/A being positioned as aspirational. But that doesn't cut it for me. It would need to offer significant real world advantages over Ultegra to get my cash. But I'm not seeing any. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand it's good that you don't have to spend D/A money to get pretty much all the benefits. But on the other hand it would be nice if there was a proper step up from Ultegra making the cost more justifiable. In that regard I'm a bit surprised Shimano have released both D/A and Ultegra 12-speed groups simultaneously. That could have been the step I was looking for!

shelbyfv

Yeah, a 30t wouldn't work for me anymore either.

Koyote

So you went from thanking me for the warranty info, to snarking at me for not making a useful contribution. Geez, you’re welcome.

Dude, you’re the one who repeatedly brought up the cost issue, and that is totally legit - it comes up all the time around here, and it’s a smart question.… No one is implying that you can’t afford Dura Ace.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, every single spending decision you make is a trade-off, and we always weigh the costs versus the benefits. That’s why I drive a Honda instead of a Porsche, even though I could “afford“ the latter.

PeteHski

Sorry I didn't cross reference your posts well enough! One was actually useful. The others not so much. Cost vs benefit is obviously important. But if you don't know what the benefits are then how are you supposed to make that call?

As for snarking at you? You need to take a good look in the mirror. Your first contribution to this thread was a blatant snark. You know I've been on a lot of forums in my time, but this place is quite special (not aimed at you exclusively).

tkamd73 

Top tier group sets look way cooler on the bike.
Tim

Koyote

I'm not in this for the "likes," but that post got more of them than all other posts in this thread combined. So, while the post may have gone over your head, plenty of other people got it.

Germany_chris

I buy based on hood shape/comfort new new DA Di2 might be the best thing on the market but I’ve never gotten along with Shimano hoods. That drives me to post 2015 campy and SRAM I like both but if I had to choose just one for general riding I’d choose SRAM. Since I wouldn’t notice the gains that SR/DA/Red would generate I’d probably just go Force AXS, or Chorus/Record.

PeteHski

That's debatable. But then I'm not into bling just for the sake of it. But I do think Campag looks cool - just because of the history and style. Shimano and Sram don't quite have that same appeal. Mmmmm.....maybe I should just treat myself to a top end Campag set.
I hadn't really thought much about Campy, but a quick look at their Super Record Electronic set looks pretty awesome! Tempting for sure.

Maelochs

Welll .... first off, "Cost is no object" is a phrase with a Very specific meaning .... and not the meaning yuo gave it.

You might better have said "cost is not an important limiting factor compared to performance," or some such, which actuially reflects the situation you are describing.

(As an aside, I built up my second CF wunderbike with 105 because I had one with Ultegra and another with 105, and I didn't see enough of an upgrade in performance ---part performance, not my performance, which would have been about the weight or absolute efficiency--between the groups. I could have saved eight ounces?

That is thirteen seconds off of the biggest U.S. climb for a climber who could climb that mountain in the first place ...... )

And that is my answer, I guess. Right now if I were to build another road bike and possibly a gravel bike, I would go with Ultegra DI.

I cannot believe that DA is more robust than Ultegra by a third .... I see that more as a sales gimmick for non-racing or non-pro racing people who are on the edge about buying DA--"You know, of course, that DA has a fifty percent longer warranty, right?" Fact isd, racers don't care That much--crit racers might buy down because they expect to crash at lower levels, and road racers are probably buying DA cassettes knowing they wear out every season because they want to be as light as possible (or at the UCI limit for UCI-sanctioned events.)

Shimano knows that a warranty really only covers defective materials or assembly at the factory .... the Shimano factory, you are SOL if the bike manufacturer messed up installing it---and that materials and workmanship claims would be really hard to prove.

As for shifting, pretty sure the speed of electricity is the same no matter how much you spend.

There used to be a chart about which group set parts to buy for max value .... hold on ..... Shimano Road Components ? Where to Spend Your Money ? Art's SLO Cyclery

More than minorly outdated but make of it what you will ..... the suggestions then were:

Rear Derailleur: 105 5800
Front Derailleur: Dura Ace 9000
Shifters/Brake Levers: Dura Ace 9001 or 105 5800 depending on budget
Cassette: Ultegra 6800
Chain: Ultegra 6800
Crankset: Ultegra 6800
Brakeset: 105 5800

PeteHski

That's because BF fans enjoys a snarky comment. It's all the rage around here.

epnnf

I am sure top tier have much higher markups. Do I have evidence? No.

PeteHski

Okay whatever. What I meant was (and I thought it was clear enough) I can afford a top level bicycle groupset, but I'm not paying 40% more for one unless it offers a worthwhile advantage over the next tier down and certainly not if it actually has any disadvantages.
I was just trying to get some clarity as to the pros and cons. But the thread has got totally sidetracked by people who, reading between the lines, are clearly a bit fragile about the "money no object" part.

Maelochs

If you (like me) ride so slowly that people can read the decals on your brifters .... you aren't looking cool on your bike.

Maelochs

This is BF. Nothing you say here matters, and everything you say here will be misquoted, misinterpreted (often deliberately) and distorted so that people can make cheap jokes and think they are superior because of it .....

I understood what you were getting at .... not that I or probably anyone else cares what you can afford (and for cyclists, "afford" means "I have so much cash I could buy a bike company" to some, and "I am perfectly willing to sell a kidney for Zipp wheels .... I gave 170 pints of blood for the DA front derailleur," to others) but I wanted to point out that not everyone was Just mindlessly nitpicking ... they were nitpicking For Cause.

If you make that sort of textual mistake on BF you will be crucified ... and since you know that, they figured you wanted it, and were helping you live out you BF BDSM humiliation fantasy.. You should thank them.

I tried to address the value issue in the rest of the post.

Best way to read BF, IMO, is to pretend there are dozens of laughing emojis sprinkled through every post .... and to understand that a lot of posts are really saying " I am a bigger butt-head than you, sucker."

Either way, less argument and more amusement.

PeteHski

LOL, there is that aspect to consider. I'm not into being showy, so I'm wondering if I might feel a bit self-conscious if I built the entire bike from the ground up with top tier components just for the sake of it.
Again not something I've really given that much thought. My own performance level is more 105 than D/A for sure!

PeteHski

I like your way of thinking here! Bikes can be very expensive for what they are, but it isn't exactly off-shore power boat racing for the ultra-rich playboys. It's all relative.

Random11

I'm inclined to agree. I have two bikes with Ultegra groupsets, but I suspect I'd be just as happy with 105. Not even thinking about Di2 or DuraAce. But then, I've never owned a car with automatic transmission either. I'm very content with standard shifting in my car, and mechanical shifting on my bike.

PeteHski

Yeah I agree. Do I really want electronic shifting? For me the main advantage I can see is getting rid of some slightly annoying cables (at least with Sram). But as far as actually shifting gears is concerned I'm not that fussed either way. But I do have a preference for 1x gearing. I really don't like front mechs of any kind. Nasty pieces of crude engineering! I'm actually quite tempted to go with a Campag Ekar 13 speed. That ticks a few boxes for me. I like Campag style and I like the simplicity of a 1x. Also looks like they finally got the cassette ratios sorted for a decent 1x road setup.

Sy Reene

"Cost", "Performance", etc.. Has anyone just come out and said that DA functionally is no better than Ultegra, it just weighs less?