Paul_P

I've been reading up on things like bike fitting and technique in the hope of making the most of what my 65-year-old body has to offer. Cadence is one area where I've discovered I'm way off the norm. Up until recently, I was quite satisfied with the way I pedalled and thought little about it. Now I find out I've been really slow, naturally falling into a cadence of between 50 and 60. But a strong 50-60. If I wanted more power or a burst of speed, I'd stand up and even pull on the bars. It felt good. Compared to the serious cyclists I see, I guess I've been more like a Harley than a Honda. All torque and no zip.

Now I've decided to accept conventional wisdom and speed things up. My main objective is to be able to climb most hills with a fully loaded touring bike that I'm in the process of putting together. I'm pretty sure my usual technique would burn out pretty quickly. But spinning fast is awkward. I guess the proof that it's better is that it's so easy, but it's also way too easy. Before, my slow power application kept everything steady and even supported my torso. Now I feel my legs and body going all over the place and I get out of breath, not because it's hard work, but because it's exhausting to spin so fast. I feel like I'm wearying out my joints with so much movement. And this only with an increase to between 70 and 80. When cyclists pass me, I notice that they're at least at 90 and the odd thing is that they don't even seem to be pedalling quickly. It just looks normal. While I spin away at 75 feeling like a sewing machine.

Will my body eventually transform itself so I'll be steady, solid and comfortable zipping along at 90+ ? I can already see the benefits. I may be a bit slower overall now, especially sitting going up hills, but everything is so effortless.
Btw, I ride a mountain bike converted into a road/gravel bike so lots of low end.

Tourist in MSN

Everybody has their own comfortable cadence. That said, I live in the northern part of the country and do very little biking in winter. I am retired, I spend an hour on an exercise bike, three times a week in winter. And one thing I try to do then is to increase my cadence. Then in spring, my cadence is a bit higher, but by fall it has slowed a bit. I have found that if I want to go fast, I will try to pedal around 72 to 78, but if riding all day long like on a tour, 66 to 72 is much more likely.

That said, I know people that spin like a hummingbird.

Do what you want, faster cadence may be better but you want to be comfortable too. Touring is not racing, it is long distance comfortable riding.

That said, I have not stood in the pedals to power up hills or start out from a stop for over a decade, my knees can't take that stress. Instead I use lower gears and stay in the saddle.

Interesting results from a young fit rider.

abdon 

Honestly as a tourer you don't need to overthink it; go into a lower gear and pedal faster. It is all about muscle memory and getting used to it. What Tourist in MSN said is true; if you do cardio in the off season you can target a higher cadence there as well.

I always loved mountains so I actually trained my lower cadence even on my cardio sessions.

pdlamb

It really helped me to get a cycling computer with cadence. I almost never stared at the thing, but just checking it now and then will give you a clue what your cadence is, and you can shift down a gear when it gets low.

That helped me survive the Appalachians and Ozarks when I started touring. Experience showed that my knees would hurt the night after I was powering through climbs at 60 rpm, especially the one I tweaked hiking 25 years earlier. Ergo, I'd check a few times each climb to make sure I was keeping my cadence up. If I could keep my cadence at 80 rpm or over, no knee pain.

Of course, YMMV.

MarcusT

When I was road racing, 90 was the standard cadence. As my coach (Italian) would say; "Your legs must become like elastics"
Then when the MTBs were introduced that slowed to 70-80
As a tourer, 60 is adequate for me unless on a steep incline. As a tourer you are cycling long distances/days. a higher cadence though easier on the muscles can cause ligament discomfort for older riders. At least for me

imi

Cycling ”knees-in” may help as well. Takes a while to get used to.
Without having measured it, I think my cadence increases slightly when knees-in. I definitely go a bit faster.

jpescatore

There's a lot of good science out there that between grinding (below 60rpm) and Tasmanian devil spinning (let's say above 100 rpm) the most efficient cadence is usually self selected - everyone is different, your mileage does vary. Touring usually means efficiency is important.

I was a 60 rpm grinder (long day rides, some lightly loaded credit card style touring) over a year was able to train myself with 70 rpm as my new normal. On indoor cycling (like on Zwift or in the gym) I go higher than that but in real world 70-75 seems to be my sweet spot. I basically just moved down a gear on my bike on my common rides, cadence went up a bit. When that became the norm, I dropped down another gear. Took time, but that's what any kind of training is - doing something often enough that it convinces your body to adapt.

Tourist in MSN

Some of the people that really like high rpm spinning may benefit from shorter crank arms.

I am perfectly comfortable with a 175mm crank set. I usually bought pants in the 33 inch inseam length for reference on leg length.

I have one bike with 170mm crank arms, use a very slightly higher cadence on that bike, but I think that higher cadence is from using lower gears, not more speed.

But since I do not have knee problems with 175mm, I see no need to start shortening cranks on my bikes. And if I did shorten them, I would find it harder to pedal up some hills in my lowest gear, as I would have less leverage.

Kai Winters

Try 'cadence drills'...start by pedaling at a higher cadence for brief periods of time...maybe one minute every five or ten minutes. Increase the higher cadence times every couple of weeks to allow your body to adjust.
I'm 68 and my average cadence is 90+, a bit less on climbs. I ride around 200 miles per week, 6 days riding/1 day relaxation. It is an easy cadence for me though I've been riding at this cadence for decades.
But really, do what makes you comfortable and feels good. If you aren't enjoying the ride you are doing something wrong...

Pratt

Very easy, just take the time machine back to when you were 25, instead of 65 and all will be fixed.

Yan 

Dead simple fix. Install shorter cranks. (160mm)

Your body will automatically spin faster with zero mental effort on your part.

Paul_P

Thanks for all the information. Today I rode 60 km (37 mi) of hilly previous-railroad-now-forest-gravel-path so got to practice spinning faster. I rode with a rear rack bag 4.5 kg (10 lbs), a handlebar bag 2-3kg ( 5 lbs) and two front panniers 9 kg (20 lbs) + 3 water bottles. The bike weighs 17 kg (38 lbs) with just the racks. I noticed that the best bike fit is not the same for low and high cadence. Before I had the seat higher and almost fully extended my leg and added a bit at the bottom with my calves and feet. So long, powerful alternating strokes and more often that not I'd also pull up with the other leg. Turning faster I had to lower my saddle and the movement was much more circular and continuous, and there's not enough time to do much with the calves and feet. I also ended up placing my foot a bit back on the pedal so the push was more towards my toes.

It seems that my old way was based more on speed than effort in that I'd do whatever was necessary to go as fast as possible, so a lot of out of saddle and a lot of effort. Today, trying to keep my cadence between 75 and 85, I was more focused on that and what speed I was in. I spent most of my time in the lower two chainrings (3x8). Used the granny gear a lot, which I never used before (lowest gear is 22x32, 26" wheels). I get about 5-6 km/hr going uphill in 1st or 2nd gear and you really have time to look around ! (though at that speed I have to be careful to not go off the path and tumble down the mountain).

I think it's kind of useful to have both methods available. At one point I got a tired of inching along so switched gears and stood up and got moving. But it wasn't long before I wore out that inspiration and went back to slowly sitting and enjoying the nature around me.

downtube42

Years ago I read Sheldon Brown extolling the virtues of riding a fixed gear bike, and ignored it as the ramblings of a brilliant but eccentric man. Recently, after being inspired seeing fixed-gear riders on long brevets, I acquired a fixed gear bike (with brakes), and gave it a whirl. Lesson learned: never ignore the ramblings of Sheldon.

The relevant point being, the fixed gear has trained me to widen my range of usable cadence from a narrow 80-95 where I had been, to a 40-110 range, while also making it clear where my sweet spot is, at 85-90.

fwiw, I rode a 200km brevet fixed earlier this year, my longest ride to date, and I feel like that amount of fixed saddle time really helped smooth out my pedaling style. This has definitely carried over to the geared bike.

I'm not necessarily saying get a fixed gear bike, but it is one way to get experience with different cadences.

Tourist in MSN

Perfect example of how no two people are the same, I rode a 200k brevet this year, my rando bike has a 3X8 system with a gear range of 504 percent. I do not have a cadence meter on that bike, so cadence is unknown. But I suspect I rarely deviated from about 72 rpm for cadence.

LeeG

I may have missed it but are you riding with or without cleated riding shoes, toe clips or nothing? High rpm is easier being connected to the pedal. Your opening post mentions a familiar 50-60 rpm cadence then attempting a 70-80 rpm cadence. What’s wrong with 60-70 rpm? Or 50-80rpm? I don’t think you should be raising or lowering your seat unless you’re riding an old mtn bike and ride off saddle most of the time. Also if you’re short legged you don’t need long cranks.

All that said high rpm is appropriate more for racing than touring as the ease in accelerating comes at higher rpm than lower and there isn’t much accelerating with 25lbs on a bike. Also the ability to put out miles comes more easily without dipping into anerobic high effort sprints which is what racing is all about. But there’s a lot to be said for efficiency and if you’re bouncing around at 75 rpm it’s possible your technique might need improvement but I’d make sure your seat is at the correct height first.

I recall an article in Bicycling magazine a long time ago that measured power output and O2 uptake vs cadence and it was surprising how low the cadence was for high efficiency at moderat to high touring efforts, low 70’s IIRC. Anyway in racing power output is paramount and you just can’t put out a lot quickly at low rpms. It may well be that you’re fine comfort wise at 50-60 and don’t put out enough hp to warrant higher rpms. My recollection from getting into racing from long distance touring in my early 20’s was that it took a year to learn good pedaling technique for high efforts and acceleration. There also many guys coming into racing with tremendous fitness and poor technique and they learned pretty quickly to spin as they were left behind no matter how much they could bend the bars and frame standing up.

Paul_P

I've been using toe clips all my life (wouldn't have wanted to be without), but just this week have received my first clipless cycling shoes (mtb/spd) along with new pedals. Haven't yet installed. I need a shoe that's good for walking since I'm sure I'll be pushing my loaded bike up long hills past a certain grade, but I'm a bit afraid that they'll be too flexible while pedaling. My shoes are strapped in pretty tight in my toe clips.

Since my stroke was so long (entire leg + calves/feet), it's not really possible to do at high rpm. I lowered the seat less than an inch but I also played around with moving it forward and back which also affected the height. I've operated under the assumption (quite possibly wrong) that it's a good thing to use all muscles at my disposal in the most fluid manner possible. So add the extra bit with foot movement down at the bottom (otherwise the big calf is doing nothing) and then pull everything up in reverse while the other leg is going down (otherwise the big muscles on the front of the thigh are doing nothing).

Reading up on current wisdom has been an interesting experience since it's quite a bit different from what I've always thought made sense. The latest thing I came across after looking at where the cleats mount on my new shoes, is that power should be applied behind the ball of the foot. I have a feeling that's going to feel pretty weird. I also run cross-country and that is most often on the balls of the feet and is where I expect to feel the 'ground'.

One thing I've begun to realize is that it's easier to get stuck in too high a gear when the cadence is low, there isn't as much leeway and things get harder faster making it difficult to downshift fast enough. I haven't ridden hills with a loaded bike in 40 years (though I've always cycled, mostly around the city on mostly flat) so I'm very interested in improving my technique.

LeeG

Paul, this comment confuses me

“Since my stroke was so long (entire leg + calves/feet), it's not really possible to do at high rpm. I lowered the seat less than an inch but I also played around with moving it forward and back which also affected the height.”

Your legs and feet are whatever size they are with no inhibition to brisk pedaling cadence. If you’re dropping the seat almost an inch the seat was too high to begin with. Good n ya for adjusting positions though. I wonder if your upper body muscle memory is fixed on a particular manner of movement that simply prevents you from higher rpms. Higher rpms requires your upper body to anchor your hips and legs with corresponding speed of anchor/relaxation with each stroke. I’d suggest dialing back the power, and loosening your forearm grip on the bars so your back is kinda suspended while stretched out and see what it takes to move the cadence up a little without your butt bouncing around.
The idea is to find out where you’re blocking smooth spinning and expand your range of cadence not immediately trying to put out the same torque at 80 rpm that you put out at 50 rpm. Technique first, power later. Higher rpms don’t require the same torque as low rpm for the same power. The upper body is dynamic but doesn’t move much. I remember when I was on a training ride behind a guy who won a statewide time trial as a junior 8 yrs earlier. I was on his wheel and he steadily raised the speed up a long gentle incline. It was bizarre as his pedaling effort didn’t look any different and I was going from 85% effort to 98% effort. As I was getting raggedy and sloppy I realized I had very little extra so I had to clean it up to stay on his wheel. And while it didn’t get easier my breathing evened out and my pedaling got smoother. It was technique. I got smooth. Ya gotta get smooth.

Paul_P

It certainly was according to usual recommendations. I adjusted so that my leg was almost completely straight and the foot down at the bottom, but without any hip rocking. So at the bottom of each stroke a final push with the foot (pushing at the ball of my foot). I found it easier to pull up (starting with the foot) from the very bottom this way, harder with the leg more bent. I was far from being able to put my heel on the pedal at the bottom. I was pretty comfortable in this manner and it felt powerful and I could ride like this for hours at a time. What I meant by it not being suitable for higher rpm is that there is a lot going on and it's harder to synchronize everything properly (though practice would certainly improve things).

Spinning faster, my body wanted to close up / tuck in more so I lowered the seat and moved it forward and tried it that way for a few rides. That put too much weight on my hands so I moved the seat all the way back to where it was.

All of this is geared towards getting up hills (as much as possible) with four panniers, a smallish rear rack bag and a handlebar bag. I'm in pretty good shape but my knees are a bit fragile from having been too exuberant running downhill in the rough convinced that I was still young and able.

I appreciate the help.

Tourist in MSN

I was cautioned when I bought clipless pedals the first time that I would fall over a few times when I stopped. Has not happened. But I credit that to my getting used to using the pedals and getting out of them first. First time I rode with clipless pedals, I unclipped maybe a dozen times within the first few minutes to develop muscle memory on how to do it, etc. Did that by riding down a trail and repeatedly unclipping to get used to it. And for the next several weeks when I was getting used to them, I intentionally unclipped my left foot about 30 feet before I got to where I wanted to stop, to force my brain to start thinking ahead about unclipping when I stop. Now, a couple decades later, I still often unclip from one pedal 20 or 30 feet before I stop while I am braking to a stop.

A year ago I was riding a brevet, was in my lowest gear, had been riding for about 8 hours and was getting bored while pedaling up a hill that steadily got steeper and steeper and steeper. The rider behind me, I yelled to him that I was stopping so move to the side, which he did so he could ride around me. I unclipped and stopped. About 50 feet further where the hill got a little steeper, he stopped. This was the first time he had ridden that bike for that many hours in one day, and did not uncleat fast enough, plopped over to the side. Nice custom built rando bike with a custom frame that got the first scratches on it that day.

On downshifting, it takes a while to get used to anticipating your down shifting on the uphills well in advance, sometimes I downshift to a lower gear than needed, just because I know how tough it can be if I try later. At really slow speed, it can take maybe a half second for your chain to complete the transition to a different sprocket when shifting, and I do not like to be pushing hard when the chain finishes the transition to a different sprocket.

Touring, I like the pedals that have platform on one side, cleats on the other. When I want to ride the bike to the campsite store, or showers, etc., I might want to wear my campsite shoes or my flip flops instead. Also, there have been times where I wanted to wear my campsite shoes (trail runners with a stiff sole) instead of my bike shoes for a day, those pedals make that practical.

ThermionicScott 

Big +1 to all of this. Being able to utilize a wide range of cadences is better than conforming to the latest "ideal cadence."

Riding fixed also made me smoother at riding out of the saddle whenever there is need or desire.

LeeG

Yeah it sounds like too tall of a seat position enabled you to use muscles like walking up stairs. You might have knee problems if you continue that technique with the seat at the correct height. Try little adjustments maybe monitoring your breathing which is an easy marker for efficiency and effort. Dial the effort back so that pedaling at a slightly higher cadence is the goal, not applying the same torque AND higher cadence. Not knowing what kind of bars or angle your back is maybe try stetching out and suspendimg your back a little more so that your hands aren’t dead on the bars and you can hold the bars in a light grip. All this is experimenting to see what needs to loosen up for a higher cadence. Again I’m not talking about 90 rpm although that would be a fun thing to try sometime. This all playing around to see what little details add up to making hills more doable. I can say that doing the same thing faster/harder doesn’t work if the issue is technique.

Paul_P

LeeG, your post was right on the money. I like the walking up stairs analogy, I'd just add with weights around the ankles :-)
You're right that this doesn't work with a lower seat height which I've confirmed is necessary for higher cadence.
I rode 70km (45 mi) yesterday with 23 kg (50 lbs) of gear, mostly on the flat except for some overpasses and one huge bridge. My seat is lower than it was and my normal cadence has now risen to around 75 (from 50-60) and is pretty effortless. On a hill, it increases to 85 or a bit more, and is easy to maintain. I can still pull up and move the foot up and down a small bit if I want to, but it happens a lot less than before.

downtube42

Driven by curiosity due to this thread I moved my trainer bike cadence sensor to my road bike before heading to France for Paris Brest Paris. That's ~770 miles over 90 hours, in rolling terrain with ~40k feet of climbing. Nothing steep, so I could pretty much choose my cadence other than a few places. Per Strava, average cadence was 73. From it graph, it appears 80-85 is where I tend to settle. Slightly lower than I expected.

The last 30 miles was flat, ridden at a very chill pace as I finished up with time to spare. Average cadence was 64, typically around 75 as I was finishing up with a party group aiming for 89 hours. So yeah, not surprisingly, when tooling along I'm pedaling slower.