zenout

In light of today's Lance news, I was thinking maybe they just cant win a Tour DE France race without doping.Seems to me that 70 % or so of all major race winners get nailed for doping.

calamarichris

I'm no Lance or George fanboi, but Hincapies's confession and statement today gives me hope.

"Thankfully, the use of performance enhancing drugs is no longer embedded in the culture of our sport, and younger riders are not faced with the same choice we had."

If the governing bodies can't keep up with the technology of cheating, maybe they need to start considering lifetime bans, and outright stripping of all titles instead of these namby-pamby 2-year suspensions.

chefxian

Indurain and Lemond come to mind.

Garfield Cat

Back in 2008 a lot of the top riders in the TdF did not participate for one reason or another. This left the door opened for a relatively unknown to win it, Carlos Sastre. After that year, he did very little in the grand tours, maybe a few stage wins here and there but that was about it.

Jed19

I think Indurain doped. I am not so sure of Lemond either. Pro cycling has been "dirty" for a very long time. I also think doping is always gonna be trying to stay one-step ahead of the testing protocols.

Angio Graham

personally I dont believe that riders stopped doping when hincapie and levi said they did.

if contador was still doping then i think that says alot. he abvisouly felt it was needed.

I really dont think contador felt he needed to dope to beat a clean levi.

Its too bad that cycling doesnt have set courses and times that can be measured through the years to guage performances like in running and track and field or other sports.

I do know that since majot league baseball cracked down on doping that home runs are down almost 30%.

mkadam68

That's funny. They get--what?--a 30-day suspension? Cyclists get 2 years 1st offense, lifetime second. Funny. Then there's football with kids doping in high school to get noticed by colleges...

Angio Graham

Actually I think its a half season suspension. That comes out to about 80 games.

chefxian

In May 1994, Indurain tested positive for salbutamol following the Tour de L'Oise in France. Though the β2-adrenergic agonist, found in nasal inhalers, was on the banned substance list of both the IOC and UCI, both organization's permitted sportsmen with asthma to use it. However in France there was an outright ban on its use.[SUP][21][/SUP] The IOC agreed with the UCI that Indurain would not be punished for using a drug banned outright in France because they accepted the salbutamol was contained in a nasal inhaler he had been using legitimately to aid his respiration. In Spain, the incident was interpreted as another case of the French attempting to hinder Indurain's domination of the sport.[22


Never really heard of Lemond doping. Of course its cycling so everyone thinks someone is doping. Everyones doping in the races I'm losing in. Its just a pretty broad statement. In the 90s doping wasn't really labeled on Lemond or Indurain. Although this in not the hill I am willing to die on either.

Did meet Indurain a couple of weeks ago. Super modest and nice guy. Should have checked his pockets.

calamarichris

I have no opinion on Indurain, partly because I've never seen any interviews that didn't go through a translator, but I get a little Lance-fanboi/partisan whenever someone accuses Lemond. Not because I think he's saintly, but because I think he's too simple.
I've watched his interviews and his tours dozens of times; he's neither clever nor cunning enough to pull it off the way Armstrong did. Pretty lame to cast aspersions on someone's intelligence, but every move he's made that's been covered by the media (even after he retired) points to a simple guy who could ride a bike clean like no one else could, (well, except for the Badgeman.)

chefxian

If you read Fignons book he talks about the doping with the SR riders, the Badger included. Although their dope was a little less dopey and sophisticated than now.

With regards to Lemond, I agree he wasn't a dynamic rider. I could see how he was maybe boring but the World Champs he won in the rain against Kelly and the Russian was pretty amazing. Well yea, Lance was awesome to watch. Seeing some of the attacks in the mountains make my legs bleed. Riding the top guys off his wheel is amazing but since more things have come to light its a little obvious it was more than training.

The real problem is people want to see the pros do 20mph up the Tourmalet and kill the Pyrenees 3 days in a row. TT speeds of 37 mph avg and not miss a beat. Otherwise spectators will be stuck watching the mere mortals of the Cat 5 portal slogging around a square in a 30 minute crit.

calamarichris

I wasn't talking about Lemond's dynamism as a rider, I was referring to his cleverness and manipulativeness as a speaker, an interviewee. He's not the sharpest needle in the sewing drawer, from a conversational standpoint. IMO he seems incapable of bluffing at poker, let alone the kind of manipulation Armstrong pulled off.

Please not the bolded statements above. You're kind of answering your own question. I don't want to see cartoonish feats or outright dominance. And I imagine most people feel the same way.

cruiserhead

LeMond is straightforward and honest. He has character and dignity. I don't believe that should be translated to how clever or smart he is.
He has had the privilege and curse of growing up in the media spotlight.

He is obviously intelligent, and innovative. As a rider, he introduced some major innovations into the highest level of the sport- most notably the aero TT bars.
As for exciting riding, LeMond's TdF win against Fignon is one of the most exciting in the history of the Tour. Even many people not into bikes know about or remember this win.
He is a class-act and a casualty of the dopers.

Also, with Betsy Andreu's comments today, LeMond and his wife are of but a very few that actually 'walked the walk' in support and fight against doping.


There are many amateurs that dope. Local socal riders.
Who was the masters world champ (socal guy) that got banned for doping? I know of a few cat1's that dope... and are dopes.

rubic

Are you sure? Maybe they were just never caught. Just sayin'.

robertkat

The answer is, of course, yes. It's been done. Many times. However, there is the argument that is in favor of doping. Allow doping within reason. Have specific guidelines, require professional medical doctors that are a neutral third party official and not part of any team to proscribe and administer the drugs. So then we have doping done in a safe and equal manner. Which means the crowds get their high speed thrills and the racers are back on an even level. Of course this then brings us back around to why should they do it if everyone is on equal terms. I dunno, maybe we need to take a cue from keirin racing - everyone rides the same bike, trains the same way, no teams, etc.

I think cycling gets the short end of the stick. But with the traditions associated with it, especially openness, I can see why.

cruiserhead

There is no such thing as 'equal' doping and it punishes honest cyclists as it has been doing.

Quote:

Which means the crowds get their high speed thrills and the racers are back on an even level. Of course this then brings us back around to why should they do it if everyone is on equal terms. I dunno, maybe we need to take a cue from keirin racing - everyone rides the same bike, trains the same way, no teams, etc.

Cyclists don't dope for the crowds. They dope to get over on the other guy and have a easy way out- they cheat.
I like the way you think about trying to do something to change things though.

The culture of racing needs to change, and people need to stop doping- not the other way around. When people espouse legalized cheating, they have lost the entire point of athletics.

You want to know what honest racers think? Tilford wrote up something that I think hits it
https://stevetilford.com/?p=22105

I read another great article on why doping and legalizing it is just a big farce and doesn't work, wouldn't work.
Unfortunately, I can't find that article at the moment.

JimmyNH

Cruiserhead, you are such a gullible (sorry, not just you - there are millions out there who think along the same lines). As mkadam68 pointed out - there are high school football players that dope, never mind the pros. Let me put it straight and simple - big sport and doping are inseparable. And it pisses me off when all these morons from WADA, USADA etc. ruin the lives and careers of many good athletes. Here is what must be done:
1) Legalize dope! Professional/elite athletes in all sports have always done it, do it and will do it, no matter what. Doping improves your performance by about 2-3%. So all these guys that bítch and moan that they couldn't make it to the pros because of the dopers are talking shít. If you are not good enough, all the EPO in the world won't help you.
2) Dismantle WADA, USADA and all the other ADAs. They serve no purpose and waste tons of money (a comprehensive EPO test costs around $3,000).
3) Reinstate the winners of all races who have been DQ-ed for doping: Michael Rasmussen (the most appalling case of all), Floyd Landis, Roberto Heras, Marco Pantani (RIP), Alberto Contador, Tyler Hamilton - just to name a few.
4) Make all these ADAs pay all the people whose lives and careers they have ruined. That includes not just the athletes, but also doctors like Willie Voet, Michele Ferrari and Eufimiano Fuentes.
You still think dopers suck? Good for you - then don't watch NFL, NBA, NHL, ATP, TdF, Vuelta, Giro etc. Come see me kick some arse on the Amtrak Century. I promise I'll be clean like a baby. Well, maybe just a can of FRS for breakfast and a large cup of coffee. Oooops! Caffeine was a banned substance until about 2005.

robertkat

Jimmy for the win!

cruiserhead

That's a pretty bleak view of cycling you have.
USADA didn't ruin anyone's life, the dopers did it to themselves.

American sports are a joke. Baseball's drug testing is a farce.
But we are talking cycling here and guess what, this is what's getting cleaned up right now.

Politics and b.s. is always involved so what.
Gullible? There is cheating at every level, I know. I've seen it- dumbarse amateurs and semi-pro cat 2s and 1s taking drugs.
Age grouper World Champs with no frickin' career on the line, doping.
Cheaters will always be there because people are vicious cowards and when the system gets out of hand, forces good people to make these crappy choices.

And finally it contamintes the sport so bad that people think it's ok to cheat and that's normal and acceptable.
That's terrible damage to the sport because it's a cowards lie.

Genaro

Ahtletes didn't begin doping in the 90's, 80's or even 70's. Unfortunately, it has been a huge part of "Big sports" as Jimmy put it for a long time. I really doubt the recent scandals will clean anything up. Maybe temporarily, but when the ADA's shift theyre focus to another sport, it will be back.
A little timeline on doping in sports
https://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/vie...ourceID=002366

calamarichris

I'm with you Cruiser. That everyone's always done it in the past is no reason to continue.

~We've always lived in caves and eaten raw meat, therefore we should continue to do so.
~We've always enslaved people with dark skin, therefore we should continue to do so.
~Women have never been permitted to vote before, why should we allow them to do so now?

Change finally happens when everyone is "gullible" enough to see it's for the best.

JimmyNH

Sorry, I forgot to answer the original questions. The answer is "hell NO".
Cruiser, I actually agree with quite a few things that you said, not just above but in your previous posts too. It seems you've seen a lot, but you also assume that there are guys out there who can win races like Popeye - on spinach and water. I wish you were right, but unfortunately that's not the case. If you want to educate yourself a bit on the topic of doping, I would recommend Willie Voet’s book "Breaking the chain".

These are not good analogies my friend! If you want something comparable - look at the prohibition from the 1930s (yeah, I know, I'm that old) . Same thing is with doping.
You should still remember the days when you were 16-20 years old. At that age nobody cares about life after 30. At that age you'll take anything just to kick your buddies' arse in a local race.

I reckon the future lies where RobertKat said:

Angio Graham

sports that require technique and skill dont need dope.

tennis and golf players dont dope. basketball hasnt had any issues either.

calamarichris

Erm--if you really were alive then, weren't you in Russia then comrade? You look pretty good for a 90-year-old.
In any case, I don't much understand your analogy either. How is doping like Prohibition? Are you suggesting that making doping illegal will lead to bathtub-EPO, eventually changing everyone's mind, and we'll all suddenly decide to re-legalize it?

CACycling

Regardless of the rules, there will be those who expend a lot of effort seeing how close they can legally get to the line and there will be those who cross the line and spend a lot of effort trying to avoid getting caught. Moving the line will not change this. Just because you can do better by cheating doesn't mean it should be legalized.