Holdsworth Professional build (650B)
#26
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Yes, I release my Vainqueur C-pulls by popping out one end of the straddle, but it's not what I'd call easy.
I have modified the brake, widening the slit that the cable has to pass through to get out, in the direction that makes it easier. Hard to explain but you'll see what I mean when you try it. I used a needle file, slow going but I did it ~40 years ago and have reaped the benefits ever since...
Maybe I made the brake less safe, like the cable could pop out unexpectedly? Not really, it only needs a little positive retention and the design as delivered is way over-constrained. The metal I removed is not in the load path at all so I didn't weaken it.
I did that filing on only one of my two bikes with Vainqueurs, but I still pop the cable out to release the brake on the other one. Still do-able, just a bit harder. Easier with some sort of metal tool like a screwdriver, allen wrench or tire lever, but possible with nothing but fingers. You have to hold the pads to the rim with your other hand to make some slack.
Racers, Raids etc are WAY easier.
Mark B
I have modified the brake, widening the slit that the cable has to pass through to get out, in the direction that makes it easier. Hard to explain but you'll see what I mean when you try it. I used a needle file, slow going but I did it ~40 years ago and have reaped the benefits ever since...
Maybe I made the brake less safe, like the cable could pop out unexpectedly? Not really, it only needs a little positive retention and the design as delivered is way over-constrained. The metal I removed is not in the load path at all so I didn't weaken it.
I did that filing on only one of my two bikes with Vainqueurs, but I still pop the cable out to release the brake on the other one. Still do-able, just a bit harder. Easier with some sort of metal tool like a screwdriver, allen wrench or tire lever, but possible with nothing but fingers. You have to hold the pads to the rim with your other hand to make some slack.
Racers, Raids etc are WAY easier.
Mark B
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#27
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If center pulls work it is a great way to go. Plus we all have old ones laying around. At least I do.
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Well, you could also get new Rene Herse brakes at only $346 plus tax and shipping.
Makes the Raids look downright economical!
Not a slam on RH, I love their stuff and I wish them nothing but success.
Don't forget, Weinmann 750s with pads at the bottom of the slot are not as powerful a brake as a Raid at the same reach. "Powerful" here used in the vague plain-English definition, not the physics definition. It just means you have to pull harder on the levers to get the desired rate of deceleration. Unless your hands are weak, you should be able to stop just as fast, since traction where the rubber meets the road is usually the limiting factor. Not saying a more powerful brake isn't an advantage — it is, but maybe one you can live without to save a benjamin.
That might sound like I'm calling you cheap (or stupid) but I swear I am not! I have two bikes with Weinmanns and only one with Raids, so I'm just as cheap/stupid.
Mark B
Makes the Raids look downright economical!
Not a slam on RH, I love their stuff and I wish them nothing but success.
Don't forget, Weinmann 750s with pads at the bottom of the slot are not as powerful a brake as a Raid at the same reach. "Powerful" here used in the vague plain-English definition, not the physics definition. It just means you have to pull harder on the levers to get the desired rate of deceleration. Unless your hands are weak, you should be able to stop just as fast, since traction where the rubber meets the road is usually the limiting factor. Not saying a more powerful brake isn't an advantage — it is, but maybe one you can live without to save a benjamin.
That might sound like I'm calling you cheap (or stupid) but I swear I am not! I have two bikes with Weinmanns and only one with Raids, so I'm just as cheap/stupid.
Mark B
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Squeezing the calipers and popping out one end of the straddle on the Raids opens them more than enough to get a 42mm tire in and out! The Weinmann's wide open will also clear 42mm, but it'll depend on if the QR on the hanger releases enough for them to completely open.... The straddle cable ends seem kinda fiddly to get in and out of the arms on the Weinmanns, but maybe they can be released that way while on the bike...?
It would be cool if someone came up with a really long-throw QR for these brakes that could open them up all the way in one step...
#30
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Or these from CLB:
You could combine those with a QR in the headset hanger and seatpost pinchbolt hanger, then may also add a couple of these in-line QRs that you can put anywhere in a housing run:
Having 3 QRs per brake would be a slight PITA but maybe made up for the humor value? Maybe any two of those would open the brake enough to where a third one would be just extra weight/complexity, not doing anything. Except for the lolz of course. Those Shimano in-line QRs are especially goofy, quite large and heavy for such a simple task.
Mark B
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#31
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Oh, I'm not at all cheap... until I start adding up how much I'm spending on bike stuff..... then I become very cheap. Deciding to build up new 650b wheels for this Holdsworth has already blown my budget, so now I'm trying to economize.... ha hah ah ha....
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I did not know about those- if they allow enough release to get the straddle cable off the yoke it looks like a good solution. And the Weinmanns I have are missing yokes, so maybe worth a try. As long as they're not $$$....
#34
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I would take careful measurements of a "Professional" frame to determine whether it's a good "fit" for 650B conversion. Your PX-10 had short enough natural brake reach (I know, having one myself) that you could have used Raids or even Weinmann 750 calipers mounted in the usual way, but in my experience that's unusual. English bikes from the 70s often have pretty long reach for the rear brake -- though I have a 1974-ish Holdsworth Professional frame that has shorter reach on the rear than the front -- go figure -- but too short a reach may be an issue if you want to mount fenders. Then there's the maximum tire width that you are able to fit between the rear chainstays (can be dealt with to some extent by dimpling, but the same Holdsworth frame here will only has 30 mm clearance between stays for a 700C wheel) and at the fork crown. Your PX-10 had plenty of clearance in the rear, but a racing frame won't. It looks like the fork crown and blades have pretty good clearance, but be sure. Fork rake (usually slight on a racer) has already been mentioned. Then there's bottom bracket (i.e. pedal) clearance, since you'll be dropping it 23 mm by going from 27" to 650B -- well maybe not that much, since you'll make some up if using wider tires.
Just sayin'. I'm interested to see what you do with this one.
Just sayin'. I'm interested to see what you do with this one.
#35
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I would take careful measurements of a "Professional" frame to determine whether it's a good "fit" for 650B conversion. Your PX-10 had short enough natural brake reach (I know, having one myself) that you could have used Raids or even Weinmann 750 calipers mounted in the usual way, but in my experience that's unusual. English bikes from the 70s often have pretty long reach for the rear brake -- though I have a 1974-ish Holdsworth Professional frame that has shorter reach on the rear than the front -- go figure -- but too short a reach may be an issue if you want to mount fenders. Then there's the maximum tire width that you are able to fit between the rear chainstays (can be dealt with to some extent by dimpling, but the same Holdsworth frame here will only has 30 mm clearance between stays for a 700C wheel) and at the fork crown. Your PX-10 had plenty of clearance in the rear, but a racing frame won't. It looks like the fork crown and blades have pretty good clearance, but be sure. Fork rake (usually slight on a racer) has already been mentioned. Then there's bottom bracket (i.e. pedal) clearance, since you'll be dropping it 23 mm by going from 27" to 650B -- well maybe not that much, since you'll make some up if using wider tires.
Just sayin'. I'm interested to see what you do with this one.
Just sayin'. I'm interested to see what you do with this one.
#36
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#37
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Yeah, I suspect if I need/want more rake/lower trail it'd make more sense to source a 'new' fork and leave this one as-is.
#38
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More often though we want the opposite, more rake without lowering the fork too much. To do that, add rake (offset) as high up on the blade as possible. The ultimate is bending the blades forward right where they join to the crown, which results in almost zero decrease in the fork height. The amount of bend needed up at the crown is very slight; generally will not make the fork look crashed.
If bending the blades forward at the crown doesn't appeal to you, there is a middle path, which is to add curvature but with a longer radius, and add it near the top of the current rake curve. Being higher up, this results in less shortening of the fork. Not zero but usually an amount that can be tolerated, unless the fork was already borderline too short.
Whichever way is chosen, doing it precisely, to get exactly the wanted amount of increased offset, requires an operator who knows what they're doing. It can theoretically be done with just a vise, but it's best to do it in a dedicated fork alignment fixture and/or raking form, that generally speaking only framebuilders (FBs for short) have. And maybe only older FBs at that — "kids these days" often just put carbon forks in their frames, and may not even have the equipment for making or aligning steel forks. You may or may not have a FB near you who offers that service, but if you're willing to ship the fork then you have more options. Consider talking to BF's own gugie who has a proven track record in this very kind of thing. (I don't know if he likes getting forks sent to him for mods, talk to him about that..)
I hope to be able to offer that kind of service soon. I just finished my fork alignment table and it's a beaut, a hundred pounds of cast iron, very stout! See it here: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzU3gW
Next I will build the raking form (bender) that lets me add offset by increasing the curvature. My capability to do that, so far, is pretty rudimentary: a wood form repurposed from a round bar stool seat. But I plan to build a stronger one, probably out of steel, hopefully by the end of June (stay tuned!)
Mark B in Seattle
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#39
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As always, the wealth of information (& willingness to freely share) on this forum is amazing!
I have to admit to a lot of mental back-and-forth about what I want to do with this build. One minute it's a fast & comfy 650B build that I can take anywhere, the next it's keep it a 'racy' 700c... For my age, riding style and local geography, the former would be likely to get more use than the latter, though the latter could be a fun now-and-then ride. Anyway, beyond finishing stripping the frame I think I'll let it stew for a while as I finish up the Valgan build and tackle some major house projects and take advantage of the relatively short upstate NY riding season (at least the short 'pleasant' riding season....).
I have to admit to a lot of mental back-and-forth about what I want to do with this build. One minute it's a fast & comfy 650B build that I can take anywhere, the next it's keep it a 'racy' 700c... For my age, riding style and local geography, the former would be likely to get more use than the latter, though the latter could be a fun now-and-then ride. Anyway, beyond finishing stripping the frame I think I'll let it stew for a while as I finish up the Valgan build and tackle some major house projects and take advantage of the relatively short upstate NY riding season (at least the short 'pleasant' riding season....).
#40
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I know the 'correct' thing to do is paint the frame Holdsworth team orange, and maybe I will end up doing that, but.... From what I can gather, when the Holdsworth Professional was sold as frame-set the buyer could choose a color. In stripping the frame, I've found a couple small spots of a really nice light-blue/aqua underneath the repaint (and what looks to be automotive, 'rust-colored' primer). While the repaint wasn't great, it does seem like the stripping and prep was pretty good- but I wonder why there are these few traces of blue under it all... If I didn't go with orange, I was thinking of a reverse color scheme of kingfisher(ish) blue with orange panels, but now I'm adding matching the blue in these leftover traces as a possible option. It doesn't reproduce particularly well in an iPhone photo taken in the basement.......
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As always, the wealth of information (& willingness to freely share) on this forum is amazing!
I have to admit to a lot of mental back-and-forth about what I want to do with this build. One minute it's a fast & comfy 650B build that I can take anywhere, the next it's keep it a 'racy' 700c... For my age, riding style and local geography, the former would be likely to get more use than the latter, though the latter could be a fun now-and-then ride. Anyway, beyond finishing stripping the frame I think I'll let it stew for a while as I finish up the Valgan build and tackle some major house projects and take advantage of the relatively short upstate NY riding season (at least the short 'pleasant' riding season....).
I have to admit to a lot of mental back-and-forth about what I want to do with this build. One minute it's a fast & comfy 650B build that I can take anywhere, the next it's keep it a 'racy' 700c... For my age, riding style and local geography, the former would be likely to get more use than the latter, though the latter could be a fun now-and-then ride. Anyway, beyond finishing stripping the frame I think I'll let it stew for a while as I finish up the Valgan build and tackle some major house projects and take advantage of the relatively short upstate NY riding season (at least the short 'pleasant' riding season....).
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#42
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But yeah, that's where I'm leaning now- though I'm still going to convert to 650b since I've got all the wheel parts & the brakes & need the fatter tires. But nothing irreversible. I think I can get away with 46/42 & 13-32 freewheel..... I did end up in 30x28 on the PX on some new & tough hills this AM, but 42x32 will get me close to that..
#43
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Hmmmmm, here's a color scheme google came up with that's a pretty classy reversal of the usual orange with blue....... And the blue looks a lot like the remnants under the repaint on mine.
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That is an idea in mind... though I may just braze the eyelets on while the frame is stripped just in case. And as far as the stripping... I put a dab of stripper on a rough patch on the forks just to see what was going on underneath. Barely needed the stripper- the paint just ribbons off with a not-too-sharp scraper. Some very small patches of a light blue underneath the paint & rust-colored primer, but I suppose that could've been the original primer....
#45
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I love the idea of much of the RH stuff (and I do truly love the tires- I think they're the best out there, at least for the riding I do and the comfort level I like!), but the, er, 'surcharge' often seems a little extreme (as well as the absolutism, even if I usually agree....). I hope it just means they pay their workers/staff/etc well!
Oh, I'm not at all cheap... until I start adding up how much I'm spending on bike stuff..... then I become very cheap. Deciding to build up new 650b wheels for this Holdsworth has already blown my budget, so now I'm trying to economize.... ha hah ah ha....
Oh, I'm not at all cheap... until I start adding up how much I'm spending on bike stuff..... then I become very cheap. Deciding to build up new 650b wheels for this Holdsworth has already blown my budget, so now I'm trying to economize.... ha hah ah ha....
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#47
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Without any graphics on it (and it having been repainted), it took some sleuthing to zero in on the frame being a '79 Holdsworth Professional. It seems little details changed from year-to-year. Brazed-on cable-guides above the BB, the fork crown and the Campy drop-outs (rear drilled for a portacatena) pointed to '79. And when I got the very thick paint off the BB enough to see a SN it confirms it. I really want to get it built up and on the road, but this is a busy time of year, and I'd rather use free time riding, so it may be slow progress....
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Without any graphics on it (and it having been repainted), it took some sleuthing to zero in on the frame being a '79 Holdsworth Professional. It seems little details changed from year-to-year. Brazed-on cable-guides above the BB, the fork crown and the Campy drop-outs (rear drilled for a portacatena) pointed to '79. And when I got the very thick paint off the BB enough to see a SN it confirms it. I really want to get it built up and on the road, but this is a busy time of year, and I'd rather use free time riding, so it may be slow progress....