Why all the internal cable routing hate?
05-31-18, 08:45 AM
#51
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Man, what a blast from the past. I really talk too much.
But another thought: How often are you changing cables? If once or even twice a year on the extreme end, is the extra hassle really reducing your quality of life that much? If you know what you're doing on an already cabled bike and have the cable sheath stuff to run through the frame, you're only adding like a couple of minutes to the job.
But another thought: How often are you changing cables? If once or even twice a year on the extreme end, is the extra hassle really reducing your quality of life that much? If you know what you're doing on an already cabled bike and have the cable sheath stuff to run through the frame, you're only adding like a couple of minutes to the job.
05-31-18, 09:16 AM
#52
Vain, But Lacking Talent
05-31-18, 09:52 AM
#53
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...
There is a chart for what cable length to run based on how many spacers you are running, because there is zero room for excess slack like you would have on any other frame, because it's FULLY internal. I mean, they give you the length down to the mm. Too long and you're going to have a hard time clamping everything down. Too short and you're not going to meet the stops and shifting and/or braking just won't work. You might be able to get away with removing maybe one spacer without having to recable it, but I haven't worked on one of those, so I couldn't tell you for sure. Woe be to the shop that has a customer who insists on reducing his stem height one spacer at a time on his Madone.
...
There is a chart for what cable length to run based on how many spacers you are running, because there is zero room for excess slack like you would have on any other frame, because it's FULLY internal. I mean, they give you the length down to the mm. Too long and you're going to have a hard time clamping everything down. Too short and you're not going to meet the stops and shifting and/or braking just won't work. You might be able to get away with removing maybe one spacer without having to recable it, but I haven't worked on one of those, so I couldn't tell you for sure. Woe be to the shop that has a customer who insists on reducing his stem height one spacer at a time on his Madone.
...
To my simple mind, ergonomics should improve as bikes evolve, not get worse. Bar height is the single easiest way to adjust for conditioning, different rides, etc. As an engineer, I learned that good design started with establishing the priorities, then designing to achieve those priorities. Ease of adjust of bar height should be labeled as pretty high on that list.
Ben
05-31-18, 09:59 AM
#54
Vain, But Lacking Talent
Wow! To adjust stem height, you may have to swap cables! I change stem heights as my conditioning changes and sometimes for specific rides. I've been doing this for 40 years. I even sometimes do it mid-ride. (And yes, I am archaic. I find 1" threaded steerers very practical because doing what I just described is so easy.)
To my simple mind, ergonomics should improve as bikes evolve, not get worse. Bar height is the single easiest way to adjust for conditioning, different rides, etc. As an engineer, I learned that good design started with establishing the priorities, then designing to achieve those priorities. Ease of adjust of bar height should be labeled as pretty high on that list.
Ben
To my simple mind, ergonomics should improve as bikes evolve, not get worse. Bar height is the single easiest way to adjust for conditioning, different rides, etc. As an engineer, I learned that good design started with establishing the priorities, then designing to achieve those priorities. Ease of adjust of bar height should be labeled as pretty high on that list.
Ben
05-31-18, 10:08 AM
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Wow, way to quote my three year old post out of context. I was referring to a very specific model of bike, the then new Madone (Edit: ok, it did say madone later in the quote...). And we're all very excited that you're an engineer. Turns out Trek also has engineers. Their design started with aero as a priority and that's where they ended up.
Ben
05-31-18, 10:11 AM
#56
Vain, But Lacking Talent
I do confess I often forget to check the dates when I open posts. I have long had issues with many of the new aero bikes in that they make adjusting the second most critical fit item so difficult. (Actually I don't have that issue. I will never buy one. But that limitation completely seals the deal.)
Ben
Ben
But for my two current bikes, you can leave some slack and still adjust fit. Both internal, and both not that much extra hassle for basic cable changes.
05-31-18, 10:32 AM
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I don’t trust unsupervised cables. I want to see what they are doing. I remember when I was their age.
05-31-18, 07:41 PM
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I put internal cabling right up there with press fit bottom brackets, although press fit BB's give frame designers interesting options - still trying to understand what practical advantages come with internal cable routing.
05-31-18, 10:24 PM
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The basic design of the bicycle was finally completed in the early 90s with the advent of dual control. But perfection? Come on. Perfection is engineered to the atom, with a continuously variable lossless (as physically possible) transmission that is controlled by thought.
A low-end bike is a simple machine. But the amount of design and detail in a modern high-end bike is staggering, with the zillion bits of carefully-placed carbon in the frame, the highly-engineered hydraulic brake system, the constantly-updated firmware in the transmission, and so on. Sure, a lot of developments are bogus, but progress eventually sets things right. Just look at the T47 BB standard for example. Threads are back.
A low-end bike is a simple machine. But the amount of design and detail in a modern high-end bike is staggering, with the zillion bits of carefully-placed carbon in the frame, the highly-engineered hydraulic brake system, the constantly-updated firmware in the transmission, and so on. Sure, a lot of developments are bogus, but progress eventually sets things right. Just look at the T47 BB standard for example. Threads are back.
04-21-22, 01:00 PM
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04-21-22, 01:36 PM
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04-21-22, 02:59 PM
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04-21-22, 03:07 PM
#63
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Well this topic has not aged.
I have internal cables and I like them, looks clean. I wish the Aethos had them.
I perform day to day maintenance and most component swaps on my bike, however, when it comes to full disassembly and changing over cables, I pay someone to do it, and happily extra for the internal routing.
I have internal cables and I like them, looks clean. I wish the Aethos had them.
I perform day to day maintenance and most component swaps on my bike, however, when it comes to full disassembly and changing over cables, I pay someone to do it, and happily extra for the internal routing.
04-21-22, 03:07 PM
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04-21-22, 03:52 PM
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Well this topic has not aged.
I have internal cables and I like them, looks clean. I wish the Aethos had them.
I perform day to day maintenance and most component swaps on my bike, however, when it comes to full disassembly and changing over cables, I pay someone to do it, and happily extra for the internal routing.
I have internal cables and I like them, looks clean. I wish the Aethos had them.
I perform day to day maintenance and most component swaps on my bike, however, when it comes to full disassembly and changing over cables, I pay someone to do it, and happily extra for the internal routing.
04-21-22, 05:48 PM
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04-22-22, 06:36 PM
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04-23-22, 01:38 AM
#68
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Ive got internal routing on my BmC for both my shifters and brakes. Never really been an issue for me, for the once a year I replace the cables. I just slide a liner over the old cable, then slide the new cable through said liner. Very easy. Not sure how you would do it otherwise, with magnets and stuff? 
I have noticed the cables inside the frame are susceptible to corrosion. So the argument that internal cables last longer because they arent exposed is not true.
I have noticed the cables inside the frame are susceptible to corrosion. So the argument that internal cables last longer because they arent exposed is not true.
04-23-22, 06:41 AM
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04-23-22, 06:47 AM
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04-25-22, 01:28 AM
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04-25-22, 07:45 AM
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Let's face it, most bikes these days have internal routing - just maybe not at the handlebar. So the question is, is internal at the handlebar a bad idea, and well as far as I can tell, only for mechanics. But how often does one need to touch these? In my first season with fully integrated cabling, not once. I guess the more you race, the more this is needed.
04-25-22, 08:09 AM
#73
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Its aged just fine. Internal cables are still largely a total waste on 95% of consumer bikes that have them as the stated performance reason, aero, is total BS. Hey the cables need to be internal because its aero, but that trendy handlebar bag that catches wind can stay? Internal cable routing is much better now than it was a handful of years ago because brands have improve design to make the routing not nearly as clusterF'd. If you read threads, some of the internal routing has been a nightmare with crazy bends and poor design.
As for integrated cables, they look neat and as a nightmare to set up compared to external. They just are. Headsets needed to be redesigned. If you want to change the stem length, stem height, or stem angle you either cant or you need all new cables, housing, and hoses. It is time consuming and costly. But it looks slick and can save 3 watts over 60min at 45kmph so its obviously needed.***
A design that was simple to set up, adjust, and service is now complicated, time consuming, and more expensive. Progress!
As for integrated cables, they look neat and as a nightmare to set up compared to external. They just are. Headsets needed to be redesigned. If you want to change the stem length, stem height, or stem angle you either cant or you need all new cables, housing, and hoses. It is time consuming and costly. But it looks slick and can save 3 watts over 60min at 45kmph so its obviously needed.***
A design that was simple to set up, adjust, and service is now complicated, time consuming, and more expensive. Progress!
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04-25-22, 11:29 AM
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Its aged just fine. Internal cables are still largely a total waste on 95% of consumer bikes that have them as the stated performance reason, aero, is total BS. Hey the cables need to be internal because its aero, but that trendy handlebar bag that catches wind can stay? Internal cable routing is much better now than it was a handful of years ago because brands have improve design to make the routing not nearly as clusterF'd. If you read threads, some of the internal routing has been a nightmare with crazy bends and poor design.
As for integrated cables, they look neat and as a nightmare to set up compared to external. They just are. Headsets needed to be redesigned. If you want to change the stem length, stem height, or stem angle you either cant or you need all new cables, housing, and hoses. It is time consuming and costly. But it looks slick and can save 3 watts over 60min at 45kmph so its obviously needed.***
A design that was simple to set up, adjust, and service is now complicated, time consuming, and more expensive. Progress!
As for integrated cables, they look neat and as a nightmare to set up compared to external. They just are. Headsets needed to be redesigned. If you want to change the stem length, stem height, or stem angle you either cant or you need all new cables, housing, and hoses. It is time consuming and costly. But it looks slick and can save 3 watts over 60min at 45kmph so its obviously needed.***
A design that was simple to set up, adjust, and service is now complicated, time consuming, and more expensive. Progress!
Also, who rides with a handlebar bag that has an aero bike? Lol, never seen that.
The last part you can say about many innovations. E.g. smartphone versus good old Nokias. My dad surely could use the latter much more easily.
04-25-22, 11:41 AM
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I got mine for the looks. And for convenience, cables can get caught in things. Aero is just a nice benefit.
Also, who rides with a handlebar bag that has an aero bike? Lol, never seen that.
The last part you can say about many innovations. E.g. smartphone versus good old Nokias. My dad surely could use the latter much more easily.
Also, who rides with a handlebar bag that has an aero bike? Lol, never seen that.
The last part you can say about many innovations. E.g. smartphone versus good old Nokias. My dad surely could use the latter much more easily.
My comment about bar bags was moreso directed at gravel where aero design elements are all the rage. I just find it funny that something is advertised as aero and then a bag is hung from the front or a race number is hung from the front and all claimed benefits are totally gone. With that said, I have seen bar bags on aero road bikes too...I am guessing they are used when someone is riding with friends on a weekend bar ride or something like that?
Smartphones are more complex than an old Nokia, but they also provide significant measurable benefits that have shown to be wanted by almost all users. Integrated cables just look neat. Thats it. If that is whats most important, then cool get the bike with integrated cables, but as of now there are not significant measurable benefits to having integrated cables.