Shazaam

I am a horrible runner and I was wondering if I could do most of my run training on an elipitacal (sp?) machine. It doesn't put as much pressure on my knees or back and I seem to be able to run better, but not totally sure if that is because of the smooth motion of the machine. I do not use the handle bars to help me run I use my legs only.

I am doing a sprint distance for my first tri so I don't need to be running 10 miles+ or anything. Just wondering.

Thanks

trsidn 

You really need to get used to actually running. The elliptical is NOTHING like actual running. The elip is good exercise, but it's not a good substitute. Even the treadmill is not a good substitute.

navyffp

I can relate, and I agree with Trisdn. I had a right achillies tendon rupture in Oct 2001. For the first few years after surgery, any stress on my achillies scared the you know what out of me. I was recalled with the Marines in 2003. First thing that happened was I ended up assigned a physical trainer at the Gym to rehab the leg. When it was finaly far enough along to run, the trainer evaluated my runnig form on the treadmill, stopped me and took me back to the basics on how to run (form). I thought running was running, but like swimming or weight lifting, proper form is a must. It was amazing how much less running hurt after some changes in my posture and form.
That said, running on a treadmill or an eliptical is nothing at all like running on real ground, going up and down hills. I find I have a different breathing pattern and feel the use of different muscles when running on ground. I plan to get to where I can do five miles before my sprint seeing as how my feet feel like they filled with lead after getting off the bike! Someone on the forums had a real good link to some swimming coaching. Maybee someones knows of something simaler for running.
Good Luck

trsidn 

^^ I personally would probably do well to learn how to run. Never got any instruction, I hate it, and if it weren't for the Tri, I wouldn't do it. I always give it shortest shrift.

edbikebabe

The elliptical ISN'T running. In order to improve the run - you must run. (exactly the reason why my run sucks - I hate doing it).

jtaddei

I suck at running to but recently decided to this start Couch to 5k running program (https://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml). So far everything is great and i've talked to people who have been equally or worse runners who sware that going through this program detail by detail (without skipping ahead) is great for enjoying a run.

Like said about look into posture, there is more to running than just moving your legs.

Calminian

Hey Shazaam. I had a knee issue a while back and just finished getting prolotherapy. It's doing much better. Initially I was doing all elliptical for fear about my knee. Then I slowly worked in treadmill running. My biggest concern is my weight, and the elliptical helped me drop a few pounds and take some pressure off my joints. If weight is an issue, I would continue to do the elliptical with some light running. Currently I'm doing about 50/50, and I always warm up on the elliptical. While elliptical is different from running, the motion is about the same, so it's a perfect way to warm up. But you definitely have to get actual running into your training. That's my 2¢.

TysonB

Shazaam,

You may not like this answer, and I am sure there are dedicated runners here who will totally disagree, BUT, "Just Do It!" Quit debating, scheming analyzing, reading, etc., and get your butt out to the track and start running.

There are lots of theories and advice books/videos out there, but until you have run a while, it's stupid to even mess around. I would guess that you can in short order start doing 5K training runs regularly. When you can do this without much trouble, THEN, start figuring out HOW to run. Your body on its own can get you to regular 5K runs. At this point, however, you have no way of knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are.

Once you put in some miles, you will have a benchmark to measure against, everything from "perceived effort" to elapsed time, to the length of stride and rythm, to the types of shoes best suited to you, will all be more easily seen once you do some miles.

AND, it might turn out that you don't have to chance much at all.

Have fun

TysonB
Cushing, OK

Para||el

What you've asked makes no sense whatsoever. No form of exercise can ever substitute for another. An elliptical isn't going to do anything for you as far as improving your running for the following reason: your aerobic fitness is already as good as it will get from any assisted form of exercise due to cycling. It isn't going to build the running-specific muscles and form that you need to develop from running.

That said, running doesn't really need to be your focus. As long as you maintain the musculature and fitness that you gain from running with other activities, there won't be a problem. All that you need to do is build the muscles and maintain your running form.

Calminian

I don't think most of these posers have dealt with injured or sensitive knees. Keep doing the elliptical along with running. Use it to warm up. It's done wonders for my knee recovery. I currently do about 30 min. warm up on the elliptical, and 30 min. running. Prior to this is was about 45 elliptical and 15 running. Don't let these guys jack up your knees.

Para||el

Actually, you might be pleasantly surprised to learn that most of "these posers" can probably do over fifteen miles at 7:00 pace, run 50-70+ mile weeks, and have had to deal with countless running-related injuries. In short, "these posers" likely post times that you will never be able to match with that kind of self-pitying attitude.

Shazaam never quoted chronic knee problems, thus giving us absolutely no reason that he has any need to protect his knees from the countless dangers that running poses to them. Sure, he worries about high-impact running, but no more so than the rest of our anti-running society. Running has no greater risk of injury than cycling. The thing to remember however, is that running requires more diligent self-observation of one's health. Stretching after every run is vital to avoid injuries, while icing can expedite recovery between runs.


As someone running for shorter races, I would recommend building to daily runs of 3-5 miles, with a weekly long run of 7 miles for a period of at least three weeks for Shazaam. This should be a fairly easy to attain set of distances that will help you improve your running economy and form, yet still allowing only marginal risk of injury.

Jagee

Shazaam,

In approaching running, make sure you get in the right shoes. For instance, find a running specialty shop near you and find out what type of running shoe support may or may not work for you (i.e.- find out whether you pronate to a certain degree or if you have a "neutral" gait). Good shoes that work for you can be an valuable tool in starting to run/walk more.

My opinion is that there isn't a substitute for running--if you plan on doing it in a race, plan on preparing for the race by doing the activity in training. Proper running, with careful preparation and good shoes, should actually help strengthen ligaments and, obviously, muscles. Running--as long as it isn't overdone or done in poor practice--certainly does not have to equal bad knees, feet, etc.

That being said, the elliptical machine can be a great supplement to training if you enjoy it and it works for you. Calminian has worked out a great program for himself--find out what works for you.

Re: Parallel's assertion that "What you've asked makes no sense whatsoever," I have no idea how that statement in itself makes sense. This forum is a place for folks to ask questions and exchange ideas. If the OP has a question about training for a triathlon, it would seem that this triathlon forum would be a perfect place to ask it. Movement on the elliptical can be said to be similar to a running movement from the perspective of someone beginning to think about run training. It's easy to see why he/she might wonder if it could largely or totally substitute for running itself. Let's at least keep this forum welcoming.

nmichell

Hi Shazaam,

Good luck with your tri. I'm going to agree with practically everyone else that, yes, you need to run. A couple of comments though: (1) If you've been doing elliptical only, work in the running SLOWLY. This is really critical -- you've probably got the aerobic capacity to do a lot more running than you're joints or tendons can handle right now, so start with short runs and build up gradually. (2) You need to get out and run on real roads because it is different than a treadmill, but if you want to start on the treadmill, and continue to do some of your running on the treadmill, I think you'll be just fine. (3) I'll second the comment about getting good running shoes from a running store you can trust to fit you correctly.

gervelo

AS earlier said...nothing beats actual running...but to avoid injury, you may consider running on a treadmill or elliptical for "exercise" purposes...

The_Spaniard

like said above make sure your shoes are good, try to start on a softer surface than concrete and work your way up. Usually i will take people that need to build up there knees onto a soft dirt trail or maybe the beahc for runs before putting them on concrete. You can also tweak your stride and such but i wouldnt worry about that unless your still get pain and such or your looking to place.

agarose2000

I'm a marathoner primarily, and not a cyclist.

There isn't much technique to running, as opposed to swimming and even cycling. Just going out and increasing running mileage will naturally cause you to develop a very efficient stride.

In terms of "weak knees", many people (most?) attribute their so-called "weak knees" to genetic defects, when the reality is that they ramp up too quickly for their fitness levels, or fail to use a planned and structured buildup when doing a real mileage buildup. It's risky to "just wing it" on the run if you're running farther and longer than you ever have before, even if this means 2-3 miles per day. Same is true on the bike and swim - even if you're in great shape for another sport, it just takes one weak link on the new one to get a injury.

My main advice, and the one that has yielded me by far the most gains, dropping me from 21:005ks plateuaus to 18:30s: run SLOW. Prefer higher mileage and slower paces. I routinely run 9:00/min miles for 75%+ of my weekly mileage, but I run 70-90 miles per week, and ran my last marathon at 7:20min/mile for 26 miles. Fast race paced work is limited to once per week. I used to train with lOTS of fast intervals, but this neglects the requisite efficiency you build while running at slow aerobic paces. You absolutely, must teach your body to learn to run slow and long if you wish to keep improving for more than 4 months. This is a WELL known proven training strategy that forms the foundation of all serious running regimens for races over a mile. The go-to authors for running are Pete Pfitzinger, Jack Daniels, and Glover, all of who subscribe more or less to this approach. Most runners run WAY TOO FAST, and way too little in volume to make true gains. Going slower also substantially decreases the risk of injury.

My other advice: until you can comfortably run 35 miles per week, be very careful about overdoing it with running, but also be realistic and accept the inevitable aches & pains. Yes your knees, ankles, hips, back, etc. will hurt at one point or another, possibly for more than a week, but as long as it improves when you back off, you can still make forward strides after a few steps back. Do NOT fall into the all-too-common self-defeatist attitude of "I'm not built to run" and "my knees can't take it" - there is almost zero evidence to show that people with healthy knees are doomed to osteoarthritis if they run. In fact, go run your first marathon, and I guarantee that there's a 90% chance that you'll be beaten by so many middle-aged women (who are actually very good marathoners) that you'll wonder what's wrong with you. (It's a bit different if you have had surgery.) Go easy, go long, and go smart.

And last thing - hate to break it to you, but there is no substitute for running except running. Same goes for swimming and cycling. Specificity is king for performance. Sure, elliptical is definitely a lot better than not working out at all, but running vs elliptical is no-contest in terms of which is better for performance. This seems to be ESPECIALLY true for running - a lot of runners can "fake" their way through a bike ride and seem pretty fast despite some terrible technique and quad strength sheerly by their pure aerobic capacity, but crossover to running seems to be pretty difficult (see Lance Armstrong.) I'd save the elliptical only for days where you really feel that you need a break from the run impact - although I'd STILL recommend conditioning to run through the fatigue to become a better runner.

cjbruin

^^^ Don't forget Phil Maffetone.

IMO this advice is spot on. I used to be a very good runner in HS but I think I would have been much, much better if I knew about this stuff. There was really no such thing as an HRM and we basically went out and ran hard all the time.

Years later when I got back into running after 10+ years of layoff, I tried the C25K programs etc (the ones where you alternate running and walking). The problem with those programs is that people tend to go too hard during the run portions and end up with lots of pains. If you check out any of the running boards, you will see a lot of posts about people repeating week three or week four because they weren't able to complete the program the first time around.

Anyway, I started reading about the Maffetone method and how Mark Allen broke through by adopting this training style. At first it SUCKS!!! You feel like you are not even running and you can't seem to keep your heart rate under the target. Then one day it occurs to you that your "short runs" are seven miles and that your long runs are approaching 15. More importantly, you're enjoying your runs like never before. Perhaps the best thing is that you find you can eat whatever you want and your still losing or maintaining weight. Magic!

So...what's the catch? It's really hard to stick with it for the first month or two because your ego doesn't want your neighbors seeing you trot along like a senior-citizen and your competitive nature is aching to run fast. The cool thing is that even if all your training runs are 11 min miles at 145 HR, you will find that you can dial it up to 8:30's in a race and still feel comfortable. Your HR will be higher but you will be able to maintain it.

The other thing that can be tough is if you get involved on the running boards with the guys who have been doing this for years. They are extremely heavy-handed and will tell you that if you run 15 feet above your target HR that it's a disaster. That's not the case in my experience...in fact, I find it to be a benefit every once in a while. Just like anything else, don't over-do it.

I hope that helps.
-CJ

kervindale

Shazaam...like everyone said actual running is different from the tread mill...I myself just started running about 5 months ago and found that pacing yourself is the best way to get comfortable with the run...Also having comfortable shoes would really help your knees to avoid a lot of the impact...Lastly look up flat foot running this may help you run a bit more comfortably. Good luck!!!

johnopower

there are a lot of runners that have done unbelievably well using treadmills extensively. as a step from the elliptical to the trail, a treadmill is perfect. ingrid kristiansen used a treadmill for most tempo runs and pushed the womens marathon to almost where it stands today.

Like others have noted, running, more than most forms excercise, requires a very slow and deliberate BUILD. as triathletes we are usually cardiovascularly strong enough to jog for a long time straight off the bat, but our musculoskeletal system isnt ready for it. it doesnt matter how strong you think your legs are from cycling, your body isnt ready for consistent one hour runs without a progression through far shorter distances.

so take it easy. a 5 min run is still a run. actually, dont call it a run, call it a jog, or a trot (which always makes me smile). maybe in a week or two, ramp up to 10 mins 3 or 4 days a week, and then, if all feels good, go to 12 mins the following week. whats 6-12 months of slow build in the long term? you have yourself a sturdy bod that can really support itself and you can then start to really think about turning on some pace if thats what floats your boat.
its being in a rush to run more/be fast that catches most people out. dont be afraid of running. its what we were meant to do. if you already have an injury, its a different matter and you need professional advice.

read arthur lydiard i love that guy. and maffetone.