Chain Philosophy
11-10-20, 05:30 AM
#26
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11-10-20, 01:27 PM
#27
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11-10-20, 03:04 PM
#29
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....and tats.
He does, however, state clearly what I've been trying to convey about how an elongated chain link hits the sprocket teeth at just the right place on the teeth to create wear. And the idea that the smaller the cog, the faster the wear, because those teeth hit the chain that many more times in a revolution of the pedals is well stated. I was hoping that with the visual aid, and the pointing, it would make sense. I admit that the waxed, curled ends on that 'stache are a distraction.
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11-10-20, 03:08 PM
#30
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....and tats. He does, however, state clearly what I've been trying to convey about how an elongated chain link hits the sprocket teeth at just the right place on the teeth to create wear. And the idea that the smaller the cog, the faster the wear, because those teeth hit the chain that many more times in a revolution of the pedals is well stated. I was hoping that with the visual aid, and the pointing, it would make sense. I admit that the waxed, curled ends on that 'stache are a distraction.
He does, however, state clearly what I've been trying to convey about how an elongated chain link hits the sprocket teeth at just the right place on the teeth to create wear. And the idea that the smaller the cog, the faster the wear, because those teeth hit the chain that many more times in a revolution of the pedals is well stated. I was hoping that with the visual aid, and the pointing, it would make sense. I admit that the waxed, curled ends on that 'stache are a distraction.
You're right about the contents, though.
11-16-20, 09:42 PM
#31
almost like new
KMC here. Sorry to revive this a week later. Thanks for the love above. A lot of info and opinions to digest in this thread, but I wanted to make a few small points.
- We have different levels, and thus quality, of chains. Our premium 8 speed chain is X8 which has a chromized pin (that doesn't rust) for extended durability. Our base level 8 speed chain is Z8 (new model names started a couple years ago). Z8 does not have a chromized pin.
- We offer anti rust coatings, including premium EPT where all parts are coated pre-assembly making it almost bomb proof. Your chain will wear out before it significantly rusts.
- We don't suggest running a chain past the recommended wear length of 0.8% as performance is affected and it will affect increased wear on other drivetrain parts.
- We have different levels, and thus quality, of chains. Our premium 8 speed chain is X8 which has a chromized pin (that doesn't rust) for extended durability. Our base level 8 speed chain is Z8 (new model names started a couple years ago). Z8 does not have a chromized pin.
- We offer anti rust coatings, including premium EPT where all parts are coated pre-assembly making it almost bomb proof. Your chain will wear out before it significantly rusts.
- We don't suggest running a chain past the recommended wear length of 0.8% as performance is affected and it will affect increased wear on other drivetrain parts.
11-17-20, 12:07 PM
#32
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KMC here. Sorry to revive this a week later. Thanks for the love above. A lot of info and opinions to digest in this thread, but I wanted to make a few small points.
- We have different levels, and thus quality, of chains. Our premium 8 speed chain is X8 which has a chromized pin (that doesn't rust) for extended durability. Our base level 8 speed chain is Z8 (new model names started a couple years ago). Z8 does not have a chromized pin.
- We offer anti rust coatings, including premium EPT where all parts are coated pre-assembly making it almost bomb proof. Your chain will wear out before it significantly rusts.
- We don't suggest running a chain past the recommended wear length of 0.8% as performance is affected and it will affect increased wear on other drivetrain parts.
- We have different levels, and thus quality, of chains. Our premium 8 speed chain is X8 which has a chromized pin (that doesn't rust) for extended durability. Our base level 8 speed chain is Z8 (new model names started a couple years ago). Z8 does not have a chromized pin.
- We offer anti rust coatings, including premium EPT where all parts are coated pre-assembly making it almost bomb proof. Your chain will wear out before it significantly rusts.
- We don't suggest running a chain past the recommended wear length of 0.8% as performance is affected and it will affect increased wear on other drivetrain parts.
I got maybe 3 months on this chain. Rust is not an issue.
11-17-20, 12:14 PM
#33
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I'd recommend replace the chain fairly frequently - that will reduce wear on the cassette and you won't have to change that so frequently. I won't recommend a chain-changing schedule - that depends on how clean/lubed you maintain your chain. Neglectful chain maintenance - replace chain often. Fastidious chain maintenance - replace chain less often.
Got a question about chain replacement intervals on lower end drivetrains.
I built a high power mid drive ebike in June. Replaced the chain at 0.75% stretch, maybe 1500 miles. Since it is a heavy bike, heavy rider, big motor that gets ridden hard figure 1500 mile isn't unreasonable. I purposely went with a 1x8 set up so I can use the cheaper (and allegedly stronger) chains, typically KMC z51's.
But during a search for ebike chain life came across a number of people who said to throw out the chain stretch tool and just replace both the chain and the cassette when it starts to skip. Said no point wasting even inexpensive chains to protect only slightly more pricey cassettes. One even suggested buying a stock of 11 and 12 tooth replacement sprockets because those tend to wear out the fastest.
Just bought a stack of 8 speed compatible KMC chains for under $10 each (got some blue ones for $6). Notice most 8 speed cassettes are under $20. Have to admit the idea has merit.
One worry is the front chain ring is specific to the hub motor, is difficult to source and runs $125. It is a wide and narrow so figure less likely to wear due to no shifting?
What do you think, save the chain stretch tool for the pricey 10&11 speed drive trains and ride the cheaper ones?
I built a high power mid drive ebike in June. Replaced the chain at 0.75% stretch, maybe 1500 miles. Since it is a heavy bike, heavy rider, big motor that gets ridden hard figure 1500 mile isn't unreasonable. I purposely went with a 1x8 set up so I can use the cheaper (and allegedly stronger) chains, typically KMC z51's.
But during a search for ebike chain life came across a number of people who said to throw out the chain stretch tool and just replace both the chain and the cassette when it starts to skip. Said no point wasting even inexpensive chains to protect only slightly more pricey cassettes. One even suggested buying a stock of 11 and 12 tooth replacement sprockets because those tend to wear out the fastest.
Just bought a stack of 8 speed compatible KMC chains for under $10 each (got some blue ones for $6). Notice most 8 speed cassettes are under $20. Have to admit the idea has merit.
One worry is the front chain ring is specific to the hub motor, is difficult to source and runs $125. It is a wide and narrow so figure less likely to wear due to no shifting?
What do you think, save the chain stretch tool for the pricey 10&11 speed drive trains and ride the cheaper ones?
11-17-20, 01:13 PM
#34
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KMC here. Sorry to revive this a week later. Thanks for the love above. A lot of info and opinions to digest in this thread, but I wanted to make a few small points.
- We have different levels, and thus quality, of chains. Our premium 8 speed chain is X8 which has a chromized pin (that doesn't rust) for extended durability. Our base level 8 speed chain is Z8 (new model names started a couple years ago). Z8 does not have a chromized pin.
- We offer anti rust coatings, including premium EPT where all parts are coated pre-assembly making it almost bomb proof. Your chain will wear out before it significantly rusts.
- We don't suggest running a chain past the recommended wear length of 0.8% as performance is affected and it will affect increased wear on other drivetrain parts.
- We have different levels, and thus quality, of chains. Our premium 8 speed chain is X8 which has a chromized pin (that doesn't rust) for extended durability. Our base level 8 speed chain is Z8 (new model names started a couple years ago). Z8 does not have a chromized pin.
- We offer anti rust coatings, including premium EPT where all parts are coated pre-assembly making it almost bomb proof. Your chain will wear out before it significantly rusts.
- We don't suggest running a chain past the recommended wear length of 0.8% as performance is affected and it will affect increased wear on other drivetrain parts.
From experience and measuring with a digital calliper I know all chains have some slop in the rollers and not all rollers are the same diameter. A new KMC x10 chain measures ~132.25 mm between 12 rollers (11 links). Adding 0.8% comes out to 133.3 mm, but the actual elongation measured on the pins would be much less, as the rollers, in my experience, wears significantly before the chain is actually elongated to any significant degree.
Can you please elaborate?
11-17-20, 09:07 PM
#35
almost like new
You mentioned you used the Z51 chain, correct? We suggest the X8 for better durability.
11-17-20, 09:11 PM
#36
almost like new
How do you propose measuring "wear". Actual elongation or between the rollers? KMC Gauges seem to suggest the preferred KMC method is between the rollers?
From experience and measuring with a digital calliper I know all chains have some slop in the rollers and not all rollers are the same diameter. A new KMC x10 chain measures ~132.25 mm between 12 rollers (11 links). Adding 0.8% comes out to 133.3 mm, but the actual elongation measured on the pins would be much less, as the rollers, in my experience, wears significantly before the chain is actually elongated to any significant degree.
Can you please elaborate?
From experience and measuring with a digital calliper I know all chains have some slop in the rollers and not all rollers are the same diameter. A new KMC x10 chain measures ~132.25 mm between 12 rollers (11 links). Adding 0.8% comes out to 133.3 mm, but the actual elongation measured on the pins would be much less, as the rollers, in my experience, wears significantly before the chain is actually elongated to any significant degree.
Can you please elaborate?
11-17-20, 11:06 PM
#37
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The easiest and most convenient way to check chain elongation is at the rollers which also includes other chain wear at the inner link sleeves and pins. It's not perfect but most users won't measure actual chain length so that is why we suggest 0.8% and offer "easy chain checkers" and "digital chain checkers" for most users.
Do you agree with my measurements and calculation, - That the chain is spent at 133.3 mm measured between 12 rollers, as outlined before in #34? And if not, then what?
11-18-20, 12:46 AM
#38
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11-18-20, 01:19 AM
#39
almost like new
Thanks. I agree, its simple doing it between the rollers. However it doesnt answer the inherent question about "+0.8% of what?"
Do you agree with my measurements and calculation, - That the chain is spent at 133.3 mm measured between 12 rollers, as outlined before in #34? And if not, then what?
Do you agree with my measurements and calculation, - That the chain is spent at 133.3 mm measured between 12 rollers, as outlined before in #34? And if not, then what?
11-18-20, 08:55 AM
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I think it’s fair to say that the chain as a single unit elongates, or “stretches”, even if none of its component parts actually elongates. The parts wear and rearrange slightly over time, resulting in the collective taking on a new, longer, shape. The chain also bends around sprockets, even though no individual part of the chain is actually bending, but no-one’s harping on about that.
I think, after the billionth time, we can talk about chain “stretch“ without having to be reminded, for the billion-and-first time, that no single part is actually stretching. We get it, really 👍
I think, after the billionth time, we can talk about chain “stretch“ without having to be reminded, for the billion-and-first time, that no single part is actually stretching. We get it, really 👍
Last edited by Litespud; 11-18-20 at 09:02 AM.
11-19-20, 07:37 AM
#41
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11-19-20, 09:27 AM
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(isn't BF just the greatest place? We can even argue over little bits of humor that others inject into the thread!)
( Moe Zhoost please read this with a chuckle. I think that was your main intention with your post. I'm just building on that thought)
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11-21-20, 12:00 PM
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That was what the criticism in your reply was about.
Rust is a reaction with oxygen. It's an oxidation process.
The difference here is semantics,
Your ignore list interests me as much as your semantics: nothing, CargoDane.
11-22-20, 08:14 AM
#45
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But I think in the case of a bike chain people are more worried about cosmetics, they don't want surface rust on the outer layers of links that are visible.
Don't know about you but my chains don't last long enough to rust anyway. I do store my bikes out of the weather and no longer live near the ocean so rust shouldn't be an issue with normal chain maintenance.
