Fix it or forget it?
11-05-18, 12:27 PM
#1
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Fix it or forget it?
I was planning on building this Masi for the California Eroica next year but found a small ripple in the downtube just above the bottom bracket. My best guess is that the ripple is from a previous repair/repaint. I'm inclined to forget it and continue with the build as planned but thought it would be better to get some more informed opinions here first.
If I needs to be repaired I will have to set it aside for a few years until I have practiced replacing tubes enough to feel comfortable taking this on myself, or a few extra years to save up the cash to have it fixed.
If I needs to be repaired I will have to set it aside for a few years until I have practiced replacing tubes enough to feel comfortable taking this on myself, or a few extra years to save up the cash to have it fixed.
11-05-18, 12:30 PM
#2
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Forget it...that frame is toast...ill be glad to take off ur hands for free.
11-05-18, 01:35 PM
#3
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I’m not even sure I see the “flaw”. If it’s just paint, this frame’s paint job looks better than most of what people are riding in this forum. And it’s on a portion of the frame that’s only visible when the bike s upside down. Hardly noticeable.
The only problem I see is of the frame was damaged and repaired poorly. And the only way to uncover that type of repair work is to remove the paint to find a weld or patch job. And hopefully it’s a real Masi!
If it were me, I’d probably take the risk and just ride it. Unless it’s obvious that the ripple is more than a paint flaw.
The only problem I see is of the frame was damaged and repaired poorly. And the only way to uncover that type of repair work is to remove the paint to find a weld or patch job. And hopefully it’s a real Masi!
If it were me, I’d probably take the risk and just ride it. Unless it’s obvious that the ripple is more than a paint flaw.
11-05-18, 01:46 PM
#4
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Can you feel a ripple or disturbance on the inside of the tube?
Another thing to try, get a small inspection mirror and look at the inside of the tube there. Is it rippled or
discolored / burned?
I'd definitely do a little more inspection before building it up.
Another thing to try, get a small inspection mirror and look at the inside of the tube there. Is it rippled or
discolored / burned?
I'd definitely do a little more inspection before building it up.
11-05-18, 02:14 PM
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Absolute neophyte here, but... I would inspect farther up the tube for signs of of rolled out damage or bondo. Rolling blocks would not be able to get close enough to the ripple because of the cable guides. I'm not sure of the metallurgy, but this might also be a buckle from overheating the tube during construction. I've been meaning to get one of those cheap phone endoscopes for this kind of puzzle. I got one for my brother and he's used it to look inside his diesel.
11-05-18, 02:30 PM
#6
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I wouldn't have even noticed that. I'd go with Cassave's advice. I'd be surprised if someone would have gone through the trouble of painting up a damaged frame that nicely, but checking is the prudent thing to do.
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11-05-18, 03:23 PM
#7
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Ahhh, I think your being overly cautious. That bike is a beauty. Build it, ride it, and just keep an eye on it - if you even remember the dimple is there.
11-05-18, 04:30 PM
#8
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Absolute neophyte here, but... I would inspect farther up the tube for signs of of rolled out damage or bondo. Rolling blocks would not be able to get close enough to the ripple because of the cable guides. I'm not sure of the metallurgy, but this might also be a buckle from overheating the tube during construction. I've been meaning to get one of those cheap phone endoscopes for this kind of puzzle. I got one for my brother and he's used it to look inside his diesel.
On any other one of my bikes I wouldn't worry too much about it, but this is a grail bike for me so I want to make sure riding it as is wont cause any more damage. I have another excellent option to build for Eroica California if this one should be shelved for now.
11-05-18, 06:28 PM
#9
Senior Member
It's not in the typical place for frame damage from the usual head on collision. I'm thinking that looks like laziness in sanding the primer. Essentially a paint drip. The endoscope sounds like a great idea. It should tell you if it's sloppy paint or repaired damage.
If it turns out that the tube is buckled, AFAIK there isn't as much stress at the bottom end of the down tube as there is right behind the lug. If anyone's done FEA and knows better, I'm all ears. IMHO tube replacement is the correct remedy for damaged tubes. I don't like the idea of a frame that has to be babied on rough descents, etc.
If it turns out that the tube is buckled, AFAIK there isn't as much stress at the bottom end of the down tube as there is right behind the lug. If anyone's done FEA and knows better, I'm all ears. IMHO tube replacement is the correct remedy for damaged tubes. I don't like the idea of a frame that has to be babied on rough descents, etc.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 11-05-18 at 07:11 PM.
11-05-18, 07:13 PM
#10
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I have never seen a frame damaged at that location and can't imagine how it could have happened. I don't think it's anything to worry about, but I'm no expert and you shouldn't be listening to me anyway.
I would post these photos on the frame builders subforum and see what those guys think.
At any rate, I wouldn't see the harm in building it up and riding it as if it's maybe not quite as precious as previously thought. I don't think it's going to fail, but better have it fail close to home than on the Eroica.
I would post these photos on the frame builders subforum and see what those guys think.
At any rate, I wouldn't see the harm in building it up and riding it as if it's maybe not quite as precious as previously thought. I don't think it's going to fail, but better have it fail close to home than on the Eroica.
11-05-18, 07:28 PM
#11
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...I have produced similar optical distortions with a run in the clear coat, using 2 part urethane type clear that goes on pretty thick.
11-05-18, 08:30 PM
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I was planning on building this Masi for the California Eroica next year but found a small ripple in the downtube just above the bottom bracket. My best guess is that the ripple is from a previous repair/repaint. I'm inclined to forget it and continue with the build as planned but thought it would be better to get some more informed opinions here first.
If I needs to be repaired I will have to set it aside for a few years until I have practiced replacing tubes enough to feel comfortable taking this on myself, or a few extra years to save up the cash to have it fixed.
If I needs to be repaired I will have to set it aside for a few years until I have practiced replacing tubes enough to feel comfortable taking this on myself, or a few extra years to save up the cash to have it fixed.
And keep an eye on it if it helps you sleep better.
11-05-18, 09:43 PM
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Build it and ride it...It looks like it came from the factory that way.
Best, Ben
Best, Ben
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11-05-18, 10:10 PM
#14
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Also, it might be molten brass that flowed in the wrong direction along the outside of the tube.
11-05-18, 11:59 PM
#15
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Tis but a scratch!
I gotta ripple or two right here:
After a week of consternation, I built it up, rode it a couple of hundred miles, rinko'ed it, shipped it back east and did 250 miles of credit card touring on it on my recent Tour de French Fender Day. Rode it on gravel too.
Check the inside of the down tube as other's have suggested, if you don't see any cracks or signs of welding, build the damn thing up and ride it, and I'll see you at Eroica in the spring!
I gotta ripple or two right here:
After a week of consternation, I built it up, rode it a couple of hundred miles, rinko'ed it, shipped it back east and did 250 miles of credit card touring on it on my recent Tour de French Fender Day. Rode it on gravel too.
Check the inside of the down tube as other's have suggested, if you don't see any cracks or signs of welding, build the damn thing up and ride it, and I'll see you at Eroica in the spring!
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11-06-18, 02:17 AM
#16
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Bulged tubes
It only takes a few seconds to overheat thin wall tubing from the orange brazing temperature to white hot. When a tube gets that hot it quickly expands in the super heated area and can cause bulging like that because the surrounding material doesn't move as easily.
Is it a problem? Probably not. The rest of the tube is going to be strong enough to support the overheated zone. If it were a problem, it probably would have caused a crack to start developing by now.
While not as extreme as in @gugie picture above ^ ^ ^ ^, I have a 1970 Gitane with a bulged head tube... see red line, it's more severe than in the photo:
As for as the sacred holy foundries of the gods (pick a name), even the best can screw up, especially when there's a new employee doing the work. BLASPHEMY! BLASPHEMY!
I'd put it together and ride it, keeping an eye of the bulged area for any sign of a crack.
It sounds like you bought the frame with that relatively new paint job. The twin plate fork crown would have been chrome plated. One reason chrome gets painted over is that it was badly rusted.
Not wanting to create FUD (Fear Uncertainty, Doubt) here's another possibility.... The bike could have been in a front ender or a garage door encounter and had the top and down tubes replaced??? Someone replacing tubes may not have had the skills to re-braze thin wall tubing into the BB???
With regards to tubing cracks at the BB, one of my Reynolds 753 frames has what looks like a crack in down tube at the BB shell. After very careful examination and with the reassurance of a very competent frame builder who thought crack was in the braze not the tube, I decided to keep riding it.
I marked the ends of the "crack" on both sides of the BB with a Sharpie pen and keep an eye on it to see if it gets bigger.
verktyg
Is it a problem? Probably not. The rest of the tube is going to be strong enough to support the overheated zone. If it were a problem, it probably would have caused a crack to start developing by now.
While not as extreme as in @gugie picture above ^ ^ ^ ^, I have a 1970 Gitane with a bulged head tube... see red line, it's more severe than in the photo:
As for as the sacred holy foundries of the gods (pick a name), even the best can screw up, especially when there's a new employee doing the work. BLASPHEMY! BLASPHEMY!
I'd put it together and ride it, keeping an eye of the bulged area for any sign of a crack.
It sounds like you bought the frame with that relatively new paint job. The twin plate fork crown would have been chrome plated. One reason chrome gets painted over is that it was badly rusted.
Not wanting to create FUD (Fear Uncertainty, Doubt) here's another possibility.... The bike could have been in a front ender or a garage door encounter and had the top and down tubes replaced??? Someone replacing tubes may not have had the skills to re-braze thin wall tubing into the BB???
With regards to tubing cracks at the BB, one of my Reynolds 753 frames has what looks like a crack in down tube at the BB shell. After very careful examination and with the reassurance of a very competent frame builder who thought crack was in the braze not the tube, I decided to keep riding it.
I marked the ends of the "crack" on both sides of the BB with a Sharpie pen and keep an eye on it to see if it gets bigger.
verktyg
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Last edited by verktyg; 11-06-18 at 02:28 AM.
11-09-18, 12:50 AM
#17
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Thanks all for the advice! The endoscope came in the mail today and I was able to get a decent look at the inside of the tube.
Only slight discoloration although there is also a small indent in the opposite side of the tube. Both the bulge and indent can be felt from inside the tube as well.
Also found a ding in the top tube near the seat cluster.
The two damaged areas may be related but I dont see any reason not to go ahead with the build and see how it rides. Might keep the ball rolling on my backup Eroica bike as well
Only slight discoloration although there is also a small indent in the opposite side of the tube. Both the bulge and indent can be felt from inside the tube as well.
Also found a ding in the top tube near the seat cluster.
The two damaged areas may be related but I dont see any reason not to go ahead with the build and see how it rides. Might keep the ball rolling on my backup Eroica bike as well
11-09-18, 07:16 AM
#18
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“It’ll buff out.”
I don’t know much about frame damage and what’s safe or not safe- I’m just glad and impressed that you’re (literally) looking into it.
I don’t know much about frame damage and what’s safe or not safe- I’m just glad and impressed that you’re (literally) looking into it.
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
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11-09-18, 07:31 AM
#19
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I'd just build it up and ride as is. Nice frame regardless.
11-09-18, 04:10 PM
#20
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I've seen that stuff before.....never seemed to effect anything....
