Litespeed failure
12-28-23, 09:19 AM
#51
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While it 'might' be repairable I'd wonder on the cost of repair versus the age/wear and tear/etc. on a '90's frame.
I'd look into replacing the bike.
I'd look into replacing the bike.
12-28-23, 10:13 AM
#52
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Appears to me the bike has served Queen and Country. Onward to a replacement.
12-28-23, 10:15 AM
#53
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No. Anhydrous chlorine is very different from cleaners with “chlorine” in them. The “chlorine” in cleaners is some salt of chlorine and has no effect on titanium. The other stuff on the list isn’t something that anyone will encounter outside of chemical plants.
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12-28-23, 10:23 AM
#54
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Also noticed the crud under and rear of the fork crown. What's it consist of?
Some states in the Winter use calcium chloride. Chloride comes from chlorine. Riding in that environment and into early Spring, putting the bike away without cleaning can cause long term issues. Titanium isn't 'all cracked up to be'.
Some states in the Winter use calcium chloride. Chloride comes from chlorine. Riding in that environment and into early Spring, putting the bike away without cleaning can cause long term issues. Titanium isn't 'all cracked up to be'.
Chlorine and chlorine compounds in aqueous solution are not corrosive toward titanium because of their strongly oxidizing natures. Titanium is unique among metals in handling these environments.
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12-28-23, 10:35 AM
#55
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At this point I have seen too many titanium and carbon failures to ever want a bike made from those materials. Guess I'll stick with my steel classics.
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12-28-23, 11:08 AM
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A warranty is a warranty, if the manufacturer doesn't see fit to honour theirs, they shouldn't offer it in the first place. I agree that that frame is now a wall hanger. Maybe Hambini would be interested in cutting it up and having a look?
12-28-23, 11:41 AM
#58
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It was very superficial. The OP's bike is 3/2.5, not 6/4. Litespeed used 6/4 on only some upper end models.
This thread is full of bad science and consumer philosophy, but these are the basic facts of this failure:
1. It was caused by a bad weld. Regardless of where the crack propagated to, it started at a contaminated weld point. It really doesn't matter what shape the crack is. Like galvanic corrosion on a carbon bike, the welds shouldn't do this and it is from a defect in construction.
2. Good titanium welds don't crack. The welds should be the strongest part of the bike. It doesn't matter how long it takes - a 49cm bike isn't stressed very much and sits more than it gets ridden. The same contaminated weld would have only lasted a powerful Cat1 racer riding a 60cm one season. These bikes are made of aircraft hydraulic tubing - do you think TWA would be okay with random cracks in their flight control systems?
3. Titanium used in bikes (3/2.5 or 6/4) is twice as flexible as steel. While steel bikes of normal construction will wear out with enough riding (usually the right chainstay near the BB goes first), titanium is very hard to wear out because the frame never flexes into the plastic deformation zone.
4. "Lifetime warranty" is not marketing - it was built into the cost of these not-inexpensive bikes. In the mid-90s the base level Litespeed bare frames were $1500, and a complete Catalyst bike was $3300 in 1996 with Ultegra and alloy rims. You paid for that lifetime warranty, and Litespeed would rather not have people talking about bad welds instead of good customer service.
If Lightspeed makes excuses and won't honor the warranty, find another one. I have bought many of this era Ti frames and bikes for bargain prices because I ride a 50cm and those smaller sizes always go for less. Recently I picked up a Douglas Ti bike complete for $500.
This thread is full of bad science and consumer philosophy, but these are the basic facts of this failure:
1. It was caused by a bad weld. Regardless of where the crack propagated to, it started at a contaminated weld point. It really doesn't matter what shape the crack is. Like galvanic corrosion on a carbon bike, the welds shouldn't do this and it is from a defect in construction.
2. Good titanium welds don't crack. The welds should be the strongest part of the bike. It doesn't matter how long it takes - a 49cm bike isn't stressed very much and sits more than it gets ridden. The same contaminated weld would have only lasted a powerful Cat1 racer riding a 60cm one season. These bikes are made of aircraft hydraulic tubing - do you think TWA would be okay with random cracks in their flight control systems?
3. Titanium used in bikes (3/2.5 or 6/4) is twice as flexible as steel. While steel bikes of normal construction will wear out with enough riding (usually the right chainstay near the BB goes first), titanium is very hard to wear out because the frame never flexes into the plastic deformation zone.
4. "Lifetime warranty" is not marketing - it was built into the cost of these not-inexpensive bikes. In the mid-90s the base level Litespeed bare frames were $1500, and a complete Catalyst bike was $3300 in 1996 with Ultegra and alloy rims. You paid for that lifetime warranty, and Litespeed would rather not have people talking about bad welds instead of good customer service.
If Lightspeed makes excuses and won't honor the warranty, find another one. I have bought many of this era Ti frames and bikes for bargain prices because I ride a 50cm and those smaller sizes always go for less. Recently I picked up a Douglas Ti bike complete for $500.
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12-28-23, 11:51 AM
#59
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Similarly anecdotally, I’ve seen tons of steel frame failures and also tons of intact, hard-ridden carbon and TI frames. Perhaps there are other factors than just frame material to consider?
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12-28-23, 11:56 AM
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TWA might have been so lax in the Icahn era… a once proud airline.
what I find amazing is that even today, airliners are allowed to fly with inop systems, such as thrust reversers…
‘My sister doing an enroute guided the pilot to call up a different aircraft, they were heading to Burbank, short runway, they were going to be “heavy” also.
suggested divert to Ontario as the runway was thousands of feet longer.
He took the hint, even with a fully operational aircraft, the pilot was not up on the latest approach guidelines, high then drop in fast due to noise.
they made a late touchdown, going too fast, E ticket braking, exited the runway at the last turnout, just before the breakable concrete designed to keep the aircraft from crossing Hollywood Way.
had they been on the original plane, would have made the evening news.
what I find amazing is that even today, airliners are allowed to fly with inop systems, such as thrust reversers…
‘My sister doing an enroute guided the pilot to call up a different aircraft, they were heading to Burbank, short runway, they were going to be “heavy” also.
suggested divert to Ontario as the runway was thousands of feet longer.
He took the hint, even with a fully operational aircraft, the pilot was not up on the latest approach guidelines, high then drop in fast due to noise.
they made a late touchdown, going too fast, E ticket braking, exited the runway at the last turnout, just before the breakable concrete designed to keep the aircraft from crossing Hollywood Way.
had they been on the original plane, would have made the evening news.
12-28-23, 12:20 PM
#61
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TWA might have been so lax in the Icahn era… a once proud airline.
what I find amazing is that even today, airliners are allowed to fly with inop systems, such as thrust reversers…
‘My sister doing an enroute guided the pilot to call up a different aircraft, they were heading to Burbank, short runway, they were going to be “heavy” also.
suggested divert to Ontario as the runway was thousands of feet longer.
He took the hint, even with a fully operational aircraft, the pilot was not up on the latest approach guidelines, high then drop in fast due to noise.
they made a late touchdown, going too fast, E ticket braking, exited the runway at the last turnout, just before the breakable concrete designed to keep the aircraft from crossing Hollywood Way.
had they been on the original plane, would have made the evening news.
what I find amazing is that even today, airliners are allowed to fly with inop systems, such as thrust reversers…
‘My sister doing an enroute guided the pilot to call up a different aircraft, they were heading to Burbank, short runway, they were going to be “heavy” also.
suggested divert to Ontario as the runway was thousands of feet longer.
He took the hint, even with a fully operational aircraft, the pilot was not up on the latest approach guidelines, high then drop in fast due to noise.
they made a late touchdown, going too fast, E ticket braking, exited the runway at the last turnout, just before the breakable concrete designed to keep the aircraft from crossing Hollywood Way.
had they been on the original plane, would have made the evening news.
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12-28-23, 12:47 PM
#62
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Nice segue! Titanium bike frame to BUR (Burbank). ie. Skunkworks, SR-71, U-2
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12-28-23, 01:11 PM
#63
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Flip side. A repair might require 4 oz of titanium and a bunch of ecologically cheap labor. Landfilling that frame and getting a "new" one might mean that another 2 pounds of titanium are mined, smelted, formed, cut and welded. That frame did fail at the most stressed part of the frame. Yes, where the most attention should be applied when welding, not "nobody is going to see my stacked dimes here". But if a substantial repair can be made, it is a decent bet that the frame could go on to many more good miles of life. Or that the next failure is at a place of simple fix. And one of the beauties of ti frames is that the fix is so easy to make look good. Brush out with the appropriate emery cloth. Done.
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12-28-23, 02:08 PM
#64
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Loving this thread for all the common BF reasons. Its like 3 separate threads on the same topic were merged.
- Warranty is denied, but a ton of responses say to warranty the frame.
- A small cosmetic imperfection from plastic rubbing is asked about and answered, then asked about again.
- The same people are suggested over and over like its the first time the name is mentioned, making it seem like people didnt even read the thread before responding.
- Random claims of chemical corrosion made an appearance.
- The claim that with documented damage like this to titanium and carbon, steel is preferred also made an appearance. Good thing steel frames havent broken yet.**
OP- that is super frustrating to see as a viewer, I cant imagine as the owner. You look at it and think 'it wasnt abused, what happened?!'. Hopefully it at least got a lot of use before the temporary retirement.
- Warranty is denied, but a ton of responses say to warranty the frame.
- A small cosmetic imperfection from plastic rubbing is asked about and answered, then asked about again.
- The same people are suggested over and over like its the first time the name is mentioned, making it seem like people didnt even read the thread before responding.
- Random claims of chemical corrosion made an appearance.
- The claim that with documented damage like this to titanium and carbon, steel is preferred also made an appearance. Good thing steel frames havent broken yet.**
OP- that is super frustrating to see as a viewer, I cant imagine as the owner. You look at it and think 'it wasnt abused, what happened?!'. Hopefully it at least got a lot of use before the temporary retirement.
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12-28-23, 06:06 PM
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I missed in the OP that the warranty was denied. Because of the lack of receipt? Would your credit card company have the purchase? (I have credit card accounts that old.)
12-29-23, 06:27 AM
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On the general issue of warranty limits this recently happened:
I was walking along a local beach and found a Zippo buried in a pile of seaweed.
It had been lost quite some time.
I mailed it to them.
They sent it back, "...too corroded to fix - here's a new one."
I was walking along a local beach and found a Zippo buried in a pile of seaweed.
It had been lost quite some time.
I mailed it to them.
They sent it back, "...too corroded to fix - here's a new one."
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12-29-23, 07:23 AM
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12-29-23, 10:33 AM
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Some companies really do emphasize that sort of customer service. I've had good results with my Victorinox (a.k.a. Swiss Army) knives that have scissors. The spring design has a tight bend and will eventually break. I've had three cases where I've contacted them and asked for replacement springs. They've always sent out new ones, and I've been able to push out the old one and install the new one. It's nice to be able to keep a 20 year old knife fully functional!
Steve in Peoria
12-29-23, 10:50 AM
#69
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MeToo. I got a new internal for my Zippo and a new Knife for 1 broken tool.
12-29-23, 11:05 AM
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two unrelated folk had trouble with new ones just prior the pandemic. They both got refunds but the tear down, then rebuild costs on different frames were a bite.
12-29-23, 11:07 AM
#72
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The guy in the Snap-on truck replaced the internal gear on my 40 year old 3/8 ratchet even though I'd broken it using a cheater pipe on the handle.
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12-29-23, 11:54 AM
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I have a titanium / carbon Serotta that is a very fine bike however I worry about the bonding as this frame is now 20+ years old.
Ultimately just about anything can fail and the failures are more common and sooner if light weight takes precedence over reliability as a design consideration.
Which isn't going to make me avoid lightweight bikes, but maybe inspect them more carefully ? There are lots of reports of frame failures in carbon frames and handlebars.
/markp
Last edited by mpetry912; 12-29-23 at 12:04 PM.
12-29-23, 12:28 PM
#74
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@Brett, there was the "Mouse House" too, how bout that ? I worked there. No comment.
My favorite genre of aviation…ohhh, only if we could chat. I could listen for all the time it took to hear it all….
—turning wrenches on stuff that flies since 1987
p.s. Did you ever get to meet Kelly?
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12-29-23, 12:30 PM
#75
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To pah the OP, I've been a custom framebuilder for almost 50 years. That includes being a fitter to know how to design a custom frame off of their position. During that time almost half my customers were women. What I can tell you from looking at the picture of her setup on her beloved Litespeed is that her racing position on that bike is not what she will now find optimum over 25 years later - especially if she has back issues. Most women in the middle of their life would prefer having their handlebars at least as high as their saddle. The Dura Ace stem on her bike can not be raised high enough. The amount of drop she has now is way more than most could tolerate. Take this opportunity to improve her bicycle. I recommend finding a fitter with an adjustable fitting bicycle that can find what position works best for her now and will for the next 10 years. And once you know her position you can find the frame that matches that position and will work best for her now and in the future. It will be a challenge but a good challenge.
The Lynski brothers that started Litespeed sold the business and waited 5 years until they could start their own ti frame business again. I wouldn't waste any time, emotional effort or money trying to fix her old frame. If for some reason you went that route I would recommend sending it to the ti business the Lynski brothers now own. But why waste the money on something that isn't optimum anymore? I can tell you there are real complications to making a frame for small women. I don't want to get into the weeds on solutions if that isn't the route you want to go. If Cycling is important to her, get what works best.
The Lynski brothers that started Litespeed sold the business and waited 5 years until they could start their own ti frame business again. I wouldn't waste any time, emotional effort or money trying to fix her old frame. If for some reason you went that route I would recommend sending it to the ti business the Lynski brothers now own. But why waste the money on something that isn't optimum anymore? I can tell you there are real complications to making a frame for small women. I don't want to get into the weeds on solutions if that isn't the route you want to go. If Cycling is important to her, get what works best.
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