Why are mountain bikes so popular?
01-14-17, 05:15 PM
#26
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I just think mountain bikes are a little over rated in the eyes of the general public and way too popular for no good reason. Whenever I tell my non--cyclist friends and family I ride road, their eyes become unfocused and they simply dont process the information.
The only thing the MTB is good for is the particularly rough stuff. They suck at everything else!
The biggest MTB selling point for the casual non "enthusiast" rider are that it has lots of gears like a road bike, but more importantly does not have the typical road bike geometry and handlebars requiring an uncomfortable and/or awkward riding posture, nor the narrow ass-hatchet saddles, nor the bone jarring narrow high pressure tires associated with road bikes.
In addition, special shoe-pedal systems to ride road bikes "efficiently" is just so much gobbdly-gook to the general public.
IMO, MTB development in the 80's saved the day for the US bicycle sellers when the general public became disenchanted with the unsuitability (uncomfortable posture and bone jarring twitchy ride) of the road bike/10 speeds that were sold to them during the bike boom of the 70's. The MTB's wide tires and upright riding position were like the good old days of 3 speeds and middle weight bikes of the 60's and earlier, but with the benefit of having many more gears than the bikes of the past. IMO, except for enthusiasts and competitive type cyclists, this advantage still holds true today.
01-14-17, 05:16 PM
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Hi,
Just my two cents.
I don't know much about market share, neither I do about how did the market and their prices evolve over the years. But there is, at least nowadays, a very important difference for the customer. In Europe road bikes are way more expensive than their MTB counterparts. It doesnt matter if you are picking low end budget or top models, from well known brands or other minor companies, doesn't matter if the customer is inside a big sports store, an "oldschool shop" or a "new fancy-pay-me-for-smiling", road bikes bill is always going to hit you harder.
In fact most of the time an entry level MTB is just a few coins over a humble and simple city bike from the same brand.
Greetings.
Just my two cents.
I don't know much about market share, neither I do about how did the market and their prices evolve over the years. But there is, at least nowadays, a very important difference for the customer. In Europe road bikes are way more expensive than their MTB counterparts. It doesnt matter if you are picking low end budget or top models, from well known brands or other minor companies, doesn't matter if the customer is inside a big sports store, an "oldschool shop" or a "new fancy-pay-me-for-smiling", road bikes bill is always going to hit you harder.
In fact most of the time an entry level MTB is just a few coins over a humble and simple city bike from the same brand.
Greetings.
01-14-17, 05:37 PM
#28
Senior Member
I cling to the philosophy of ride where you want and ride what you want. Doesn't that about cover it? Who cares if granny rides a full-suspension mountain bike and I ride a Big Wheel?
01-14-17, 05:50 PM
#29
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Mountain bikes are not popular anymore, all you need to do is look at the number of viewers on the road bike forum vs the mountain bike forum.
Back in the 90's, mountain bikes were the bread and butter of bike shops and bike manufacturers, millions were made and sold. The peculiar thing is that most mountain bikes were never ridden off road, and still aren't. I fell for the craze, and bought a mountain bike for myself, but found that I used it on trails perhaps once or twice per year. Most days I rode it on the sidewalk, if at all.
Compared to road bikes, which were more or less unchanged for several decades, mountain bikes were more innovative, and had more features to use as selling points. Things like the suspension fork, then dual suspension, then multi-link dual suspension, disk brakes, etc. And then mountain bikes had the fancy frames, with multiple tubes, links, larger areas for decals, etc. Every year there were new innovations and improvements, things which could be marketed to buyers. Road bikes during these years didn't change very much. More speeds were added, and new materials as well, but the overall appearance didn't change. Aluminum, titanium, and carbon road frames looked little different from steel frames. And mountain bikes were marketed as "cool", and the riders of mountain bikes were cool, counterculture, Kurt Cobains on wheels. Road bikes were a remnant of the disco era, which was probably the least cool period of the last century.
But now the mountain bike fad is dead. I went to my local bike shop the other day only to find that they didn't have a single mountain bike in the store. Half the bikes were road bikes, the other half were hybrids, commuting bikes, kids bikes, and a few folding bikes. Road bikes are now featuring innovative improvements which can be marketed to buyers, the sexy, sculpted carbon fiber frames, fancy graphics, and the addition of things like disk brakes are making them more interesting to consumers. The recent hipster fixie craze made road bikes more cool, and mountain bikes uncool, and played a large part to the rising popularity of road bikes.
From where I sit in my tall apartment building in Tokyo, I can see Mt Fuji in the distance. Japan is covered with mountains and forest, which make up most of the country. But even so, I simply can't get out the countryside very often. But Tokyo is covered with paved roads, and the city, if not "bike friendly" like Portland, has more people out on two wheels every day than any other large city in any developed country. A road bike or hybrid bike makes much more sense, and is far more useful for getting around.
Back in the 90's, mountain bikes were the bread and butter of bike shops and bike manufacturers, millions were made and sold. The peculiar thing is that most mountain bikes were never ridden off road, and still aren't. I fell for the craze, and bought a mountain bike for myself, but found that I used it on trails perhaps once or twice per year. Most days I rode it on the sidewalk, if at all.
Compared to road bikes, which were more or less unchanged for several decades, mountain bikes were more innovative, and had more features to use as selling points. Things like the suspension fork, then dual suspension, then multi-link dual suspension, disk brakes, etc. And then mountain bikes had the fancy frames, with multiple tubes, links, larger areas for decals, etc. Every year there were new innovations and improvements, things which could be marketed to buyers. Road bikes during these years didn't change very much. More speeds were added, and new materials as well, but the overall appearance didn't change. Aluminum, titanium, and carbon road frames looked little different from steel frames. And mountain bikes were marketed as "cool", and the riders of mountain bikes were cool, counterculture, Kurt Cobains on wheels. Road bikes were a remnant of the disco era, which was probably the least cool period of the last century.
But now the mountain bike fad is dead. I went to my local bike shop the other day only to find that they didn't have a single mountain bike in the store. Half the bikes were road bikes, the other half were hybrids, commuting bikes, kids bikes, and a few folding bikes. Road bikes are now featuring innovative improvements which can be marketed to buyers, the sexy, sculpted carbon fiber frames, fancy graphics, and the addition of things like disk brakes are making them more interesting to consumers. The recent hipster fixie craze made road bikes more cool, and mountain bikes uncool, and played a large part to the rising popularity of road bikes.
From where I sit in my tall apartment building in Tokyo, I can see Mt Fuji in the distance. Japan is covered with mountains and forest, which make up most of the country. But even so, I simply can't get out the countryside very often. But Tokyo is covered with paved roads, and the city, if not "bike friendly" like Portland, has more people out on two wheels every day than any other large city in any developed country. A road bike or hybrid bike makes much more sense, and is far more useful for getting around.
01-14-17, 06:05 PM
#30
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I got a (full-suspension) mountain bike fairly late into the game (after age 40), and really appreciated it in places like Utah, and it really helped me recover after breaking my ankle. Now, I find it almost impossible to ride, and find I am better riding my ("adventure") road bike with 40mm tires most places I used to think I needed a mountain bike for. I still think I need it for places like Utah. Maybe I am wrong.
01-14-17, 06:06 PM
#31
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I wouldn't say that rigid MTBs are always the best commuters ... depends on the roads. For most urban commutes, I think a rigid MTB with 1.25 tires and racks Is probably the best, because of the wide degree of pavements and traffic situations but a road bike with wide tires, racks, and very strong rear wheel would work just as well.
Thing is, the MTB is probably more available.
Also, there simply isn't that much "cool factor" for road bikes among average people ... considering how many average people have a belly, aren't particularly flexible, and don't have exceptionally strong legs or core.
It takes technique and training to be comfortable on a road bike, and the broad and girthy have to adapt to their particular physiques.
A cheap Wal-mart MTB might be 90 percent crap, but they Look cool, with flashy graphics and moto-X style suspensions (at least they seem to look cool to a lot of people (seeing as they sell a lot.)) Most people who have never ridden a properly set-up road bike for any length of time will need some time to adjust .. whereas anyone can plant his/her fat buttocks on a wide MTB seat and pedal off.
I'd say there aren't a lot more "real" MTBs sold than road bikes ... that is, not a lot more people who are really planning to ride trails and try to clear obstacles---than there are people who are going to try to ride pretty swiftly on road bikes.
Most of those hybrids and cheap MTBs are purchased by people who do Not want a workout, do Not want to burn a lot of calories on the way to work ... and really aren't all that keen on cycling in general. These customers want a "bike" which they can ride in comfort when they want or need to. The younger ones really care about how they look on the bike (teenage competition for status) and looking casual is probably more important than having an efficient machine.
The teens and the adults riding because they cannot afford cars (or have no licenses) probably feel a little ashamed to be riding anyway ... and are probably riding for pure transport and utility.
I doubt most people who buy bikes costing less than a few hundred dollars ever think about "going for a bike ride." They think about going wherever they need to go, and they have only a bike for transport.
Probably a decent chunk of the folks who buy bikes "for fitness" don't really think walking would do much ... but they ride at a pace equivalent to walking speed. They don't want to be uncomfortable ... they don't really want to sweat---but they feel funny just walking around the neighborhood.
They aren't fit enough to hold themselves up for a longer ride with their legs or core, so drop bars are not comfortable. Besides, many would feel too self-consciously "athletic"---if they dressed up in a full track suit with a sweatband and walked slowly around the neighborhood, they'd feel silly (though I have seen some, particularly housewives who do this---handweights and all ... but not very many at all, and they tend to walk quickly) strolling around in full running kit.
These same folks would feel silly taking three-mile, half-hour rides around the neighborhood in full spandex on a road bike. They don't Want to identify as "Cyclists" or "Athletes." They are just people out for a little exercise (and in modern America, that alone is enough to put you in the minority.)
Most of these people aren't put off by clip pedals because they aren't looking at bikes that don't come with pedals. To them, a pedal is a plastic or rubber platform---which comes with the bike.
Some of all this comes from the fact that mountain bikes started out as the regular upright bicycle that almost everyone knew of as a "bicycle." Back when it went Murray, Huffy, Schwinn ... people knew bicycles as having upright riding positions and swept and curved flat bars, often spring-suspended seats ...
And those were the bikes people like Repack-Rider above, built into MTBs. So several generations saw "regular bikes" and then a small subclass of those skinny-tired, uncomfortable, Euro-racer type bikes.
To this day, most people still consider "normal" bikes to have flat bars and an upright seating position.
Naturally, when these people shop for bikes, they look at "normal" bikes, or bikes that are similar to what they think of as "normal" bikes.
This makes shopping for hybrids, cruisers, MTBs, both mentally and physically more comfortable than stretching the envelope both physically and mentally, and taking a chance on a bike which feels awkward in the store, both mentally and physically.
Note: pretty much No one who posts here fits the characteristics of the people I am describing, so please don't be (insert term) and point out how wrong I am because You don't feel that way.
If you haven't figured out yet that "normal" people don't post here ... Smell the coffee.
Thing is, the MTB is probably more available.
Also, there simply isn't that much "cool factor" for road bikes among average people ... considering how many average people have a belly, aren't particularly flexible, and don't have exceptionally strong legs or core.
It takes technique and training to be comfortable on a road bike, and the broad and girthy have to adapt to their particular physiques.
A cheap Wal-mart MTB might be 90 percent crap, but they Look cool, with flashy graphics and moto-X style suspensions (at least they seem to look cool to a lot of people (seeing as they sell a lot.)) Most people who have never ridden a properly set-up road bike for any length of time will need some time to adjust .. whereas anyone can plant his/her fat buttocks on a wide MTB seat and pedal off.
I'd say there aren't a lot more "real" MTBs sold than road bikes ... that is, not a lot more people who are really planning to ride trails and try to clear obstacles---than there are people who are going to try to ride pretty swiftly on road bikes.
Most of those hybrids and cheap MTBs are purchased by people who do Not want a workout, do Not want to burn a lot of calories on the way to work ... and really aren't all that keen on cycling in general. These customers want a "bike" which they can ride in comfort when they want or need to. The younger ones really care about how they look on the bike (teenage competition for status) and looking casual is probably more important than having an efficient machine.
The teens and the adults riding because they cannot afford cars (or have no licenses) probably feel a little ashamed to be riding anyway ... and are probably riding for pure transport and utility.
I doubt most people who buy bikes costing less than a few hundred dollars ever think about "going for a bike ride." They think about going wherever they need to go, and they have only a bike for transport.
Probably a decent chunk of the folks who buy bikes "for fitness" don't really think walking would do much ... but they ride at a pace equivalent to walking speed. They don't want to be uncomfortable ... they don't really want to sweat---but they feel funny just walking around the neighborhood.
They aren't fit enough to hold themselves up for a longer ride with their legs or core, so drop bars are not comfortable. Besides, many would feel too self-consciously "athletic"---if they dressed up in a full track suit with a sweatband and walked slowly around the neighborhood, they'd feel silly (though I have seen some, particularly housewives who do this---handweights and all ... but not very many at all, and they tend to walk quickly) strolling around in full running kit.
These same folks would feel silly taking three-mile, half-hour rides around the neighborhood in full spandex on a road bike. They don't Want to identify as "Cyclists" or "Athletes." They are just people out for a little exercise (and in modern America, that alone is enough to put you in the minority.)
Most of these people aren't put off by clip pedals because they aren't looking at bikes that don't come with pedals. To them, a pedal is a plastic or rubber platform---which comes with the bike.
Some of all this comes from the fact that mountain bikes started out as the regular upright bicycle that almost everyone knew of as a "bicycle." Back when it went Murray, Huffy, Schwinn ... people knew bicycles as having upright riding positions and swept and curved flat bars, often spring-suspended seats ...
And those were the bikes people like Repack-Rider above, built into MTBs. So several generations saw "regular bikes" and then a small subclass of those skinny-tired, uncomfortable, Euro-racer type bikes.
To this day, most people still consider "normal" bikes to have flat bars and an upright seating position.
Naturally, when these people shop for bikes, they look at "normal" bikes, or bikes that are similar to what they think of as "normal" bikes.
This makes shopping for hybrids, cruisers, MTBs, both mentally and physically more comfortable than stretching the envelope both physically and mentally, and taking a chance on a bike which feels awkward in the store, both mentally and physically.
Note: pretty much No one who posts here fits the characteristics of the people I am describing, so please don't be (insert term) and point out how wrong I am because You don't feel that way.
If you haven't figured out yet that "normal" people don't post here ... Smell the coffee.
Last edited by Maelochs; 01-14-17 at 06:11 PM.
01-14-17, 06:34 PM
#32
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A road bike is made for a professional athlete who is followed by a car full of mechanics and spare bikes.
That does not describe me or my rides.
That does not describe me or my rides.
01-14-17, 06:37 PM
#33
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That may be true on internet forums but it's different out in the real world...Majority of bikes sold are MTBs followed by hybrids and majority of people who ride bicycles ride some type of MTB. That's the fact.
01-14-17, 06:40 PM
#34
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Potholes.
You think anyone is going to wait for the county to fill the potholes?
No. They buy a mountain bike and ride.
You think anyone is going to wait for the county to fill the potholes?
No. They buy a mountain bike and ride.
01-14-17, 06:42 PM
#35
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Reality tells me that metric doesn't really work. IN any case, I could point out that according to Alexa rankings, mtbr.com ranks the 22,000-ish most popular website, and roadbikereview.com is around 60000
But now the mountain bike fad is dead. I went to my local bike shop the other day only to find that they didn't have a single mountain bike in the store.
From where I sit in my tall apartment building in Tokyo, I can see Mt Fuji in the distance.
Last edited by jefnvk; 01-14-17 at 06:53 PM.
01-14-17, 06:43 PM
#36
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I think the mountain bike definitely has its purpose and shines in technical terrain. There are some very skilled mountain bikers that really can do amazing things on the bikes.
But for the average Joe who just noodles around on smooth gravel roads, a mountain bike is a waste. Its kind of like how people buy these lifted 4x4 trucks to commute in and they never take it on the beaten path...
But for the average Joe who just noodles around on smooth gravel roads, a mountain bike is a waste. Its kind of like how people buy these lifted 4x4 trucks to commute in and they never take it on the beaten path...
My neighbor commutes a considerable distance on pavement using a cheapo Walmart mountain bike. I told him about road bikes and he just looked at me funny, like he didnt even know they existed! He assumed road bikes and mountain bikes were basically the same thing.
I just think mountain bikes are a little over rated in the eyes of the general public and way too popular for no good reason. Whenever I tell my non--cyclist friends and family I ride road, their eyes become unfocused and they simply dont process the information.
The only thing the MTB is good for is the particularly rough stuff. They suck at everything else!
I just think mountain bikes are a little over rated in the eyes of the general public and way too popular for no good reason. Whenever I tell my non--cyclist friends and family I ride road, their eyes become unfocused and they simply dont process the information.
The only thing the MTB is good for is the particularly rough stuff. They suck at everything else!
Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 01-14-17 at 06:55 PM.
01-14-17, 06:58 PM
#37
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What that mountain bike replaced was my Raleigh 3 spd. I suspect a lot were sold in the early years to replace similar "North Road" style upright bar Schwinn's and the like. My 70's gas crisis 10 speed probably equaled or exceeded its miles some years, but was given away some years back. My "regular" ride now is a touring bike. I like fenders, racks, carrying capacity, fatter tires.
01-14-17, 07:09 PM
#38
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If you're classifying any bike with flatbars as "mountain bikes," then there IS a good reason why they're more popular. Flatbars are more comfortable and "natural" to many riders. They accommodate mirrors much better and that is a HUGE advantage when riding with traffic. Also, there are lower "expectations" when riding a flatbar vs. a road bike - no need to wear clipless pedals and shoes, bike "kit", etc. All that is important to the casual rider - which is what most people are.
01-14-17, 07:21 PM
#39
Senior Member
MTN bikes can be ridden in the woods and on the road. Road bikes are limited to the road unless you want to risk some damage by taking them in the woods. Although mountain bikes on the road are slower than road bikes, I've heard from MTN bike commuters that they want the resistance for the exercise. I commute in the winter with a fat bike. Technically, it is classified as a mountain bike. It takes me through the icy and unmaintained trails of the park and I'm perfectly comfortable when I emerge onto the road for the rest of the way.
01-14-17, 08:04 PM
#40
Senior Member
Its not really their sense of style that bothers me. The main thing that bothers me is the lack of a good road cycling community where I live. Im sure its different in bigger cities. But around here, you walk into any of the LBS and its nothing but mountain bikes... And its a shame because the road riding is pretty good around here! But you hardly see people riding a road bike. Its just kind of sad.
Originally Posted by Eyedrop
On the other end of the spectrum, the MTB community is huge here. Many great trails to ride on, big group rides several times a week, etc... They also have the big race here called the "Whiskey off road". Draws quite the crowd!
When I got into this sport all I wanted to do was mountain biking. That's all I wanted to do. But since I live over an hour from any mountain bike trails I learned to love gravel riding. I don't enjoy road riding at all unless its in an organized ride. Too dangerous based on idiot drivers. So in my parts when I walked into the closest LBS close to me (Omaha area) it was all about road road road. Not many people in my area ride at all and the few that do are road riders. I had to travel further away to a new LBS to get into a place where they did a lot of mountain biking. So don't be sad just learn to adapt. Maybe you should adapt as I had to into another style of riding? I still mountain bike and have made many riding friends from all venues but when I don't have time to load my bike up and travel, I just go ride within 50 miles of home on gravel. Sometimes on my mountain bike and sometimes on my gravel bike. Depends on what mood I am in.
Last edited by trail_monkey; 01-14-17 at 08:16 PM.
01-14-17, 08:11 PM
#41
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Last several years manufactures have developed a bike for about every purpose. Mountain bikes have become increasing specific for certain terrain. Hybrids enter the market to cover the gap between the increasing popularity of mountain specific bikes and the road. That not being enough there are now several different classes of hybrids to cover the gap including gravel bikes. To the average casual rider that is a ton of information to process. My guess would be give me a bike I can ride on path, the road and maybe toy with mountain biking but will not break the bank. Answer, entry level hard tail mountain bike, jack of all trades master of none.
I have 3 bikes. I own a Soma Wolverine, a Soma B Side, and a vintage Panasonic DX3000 in SS for urban trails. 3 bikes! If I want to do gravel I pick a Soma. If I want to do road, I pick a Soma and change tires. Every friend I have has a fat bike and most don't ride anything but "fat" anymore. All I hear daily is So and So went "fat". When are you going fat Cory? I aint buying no damm fat bike just because everyone else has one. I am not falling for that slick marketing ploy that you need a different bike for every occasion. Bull****. I rode my B Side in CO 2 weeks ago on 24" of snow and lowered my 2.4 ardent tires to 6-7 psi and did just fine. Enough said?
01-14-17, 08:39 PM
#44
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ILTB nailed it on the head. MTBs were invented about the same time as MUPs. People wanted a cruiser with stupidly low gears. 99.9% of people will never go down the highway, even if they thought it safe. I neither liked drops or MTBs for a second. Seldom have I had tires not 1 1/2 or 35 mm, safe at any speed. They managed OK on clay muck in China if I stayed in a car's track.
It has been commuters who have lately changed the dynamics of bike sales and design. Tons of IGH 8's now and some 3 spds that are all what's needed in most cities.
I got sucked into buying 2 bungie fork hybrids near Y2K, when there was nothing else in classic tour bike form. I managed to do 18,000 miles on the second Spez. The only thing comfortable for me was the 70d sweptback bars off my 1974 Raleigh, now being used on all my bikes.
It has been commuters who have lately changed the dynamics of bike sales and design. Tons of IGH 8's now and some 3 spds that are all what's needed in most cities.
I got sucked into buying 2 bungie fork hybrids near Y2K, when there was nothing else in classic tour bike form. I managed to do 18,000 miles on the second Spez. The only thing comfortable for me was the 70d sweptback bars off my 1974 Raleigh, now being used on all my bikes.
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 01-14-17 at 08:46 PM.
01-14-17, 09:17 PM
#45
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The real questions .... are MTBs popular with Freds?
01-14-17, 10:04 PM
#46
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Have you tried using a tough tire like Conti Gatorskin with tire liners and sealant in the tube as a preventative measure? Or maybe go full on tubeless? You could probably save time by using the road bike on commutes, and a proper setup should have you avoiding flats pretty well...
Cheers
01-14-17, 10:15 PM
#47
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In my experience the two main features of a bike are the tires and the fit and comfort for the rider. The things in between the rider and the tires are of lesser importance. That includes the marketing category of the frame.
01-14-17, 10:20 PM
#48
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Mountain bikes are not popular anymore, all you need to do is look at the number of viewers on the road bike forum vs the mountain bike forum.
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But now the mountain bike fad is dead. I went to my local bike shop the other day only to find that they didn't have a single mountain bike in the store. Half the bikes were road bikes, the other half were hybrids, commuting bikes, kids bikes, and a few folding bikes. Road bikes are now featuring innovative improvements which can be marketed to buyers, the sexy, sculpted carbon fiber frames, fancy graphics, and the addition of things like disk brakes are making them more interesting to consumers. The recent hipster fixie craze made road bikes more cool, and mountain bikes uncool, and played a large part to the rising popularity of road bikes.
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But now the mountain bike fad is dead. I went to my local bike shop the other day only to find that they didn't have a single mountain bike in the store. Half the bikes were road bikes, the other half were hybrids, commuting bikes, kids bikes, and a few folding bikes. Road bikes are now featuring innovative improvements which can be marketed to buyers, the sexy, sculpted carbon fiber frames, fancy graphics, and the addition of things like disk brakes are making them more interesting to consumers. The recent hipster fixie craze made road bikes more cool, and mountain bikes uncool, and played a large part to the rising popularity of road bikes.
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Rigid frame and rigid fork MTBs are extremely versatile and can be use for just about any riding any person wants to do. I think that's the biggest reason why the average person buys an MTB. The second reason seems to be that MTBs don't require as much upkeep in the buyer's eyes as does a more fragile looking road bike.
I also think that indexed shifting and MTBs has far more people riding than if MTBs had not become widely available at lower prices.
Cheers
01-14-17, 10:43 PM
#49
Its all about the cruise
Mountain Biking and Cycling are two different styles. Obviously the bikes are created differently. Mountain Biking became popular in the early 90's and has remained pretty consistent over the years. Its basically a location recreation and places like the Carolina's, Mid Atlantic and New England specifically Northern Vermont kicked Mountain biking into high gear...There's a place called "Kingdom Trails" in the Northern Kingdom of Vermont which is all Mountain Biking in the Summer. Up there a mountain bike what is used for the most part.
Heres a shot when I was there 4 years ago.
I would think in AZ road cycling would be popular but by the mountains mountain biking would be the thing. Overall I think both are popular its just a matter of where you live and the environment your in and around..
Heres a shot when I was there 4 years ago.
I would think in AZ road cycling would be popular but by the mountains mountain biking would be the thing. Overall I think both are popular its just a matter of where you live and the environment your in and around..
Last edited by EnjoyinTheRide; 01-14-17 at 10:47 PM.